Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!

Restraint of Trade and or Antitrust…look em up.

Brand damage. Pretty clear WSOP def suffered at least some brand damage. The evidence of such is in this thread since almost 500 posts and days/weeks later we are still discussing. Even if we don’t think the damage is significant, the agreed to rules are very clear that WSOP get to make that determination.

As to you list, my ranking in severity high to low is 4 > 2 > 1 > 3 with 3 being very minor threat to game integrity but 4 a very significant threat.

While I agree WSOP did too little last year, that doesn’t mean they should continue under responding now or in the future.

Frankly last year and this year, when what was happ3ning became apparent, they should have paused tournament and had a come to Jesus discussion with those involved. Cut it out now or we will do it for you warning. But they did not.

lol nah, don’t need to. Ban hammer is automatic there’s and regarding rule change it’s a privilege to play a tournament and if do so must obey the rules put in place to preserve integrity of competition. It probably won’t be necessary but I’ll bump this if they put in explicit rule next year.

It amazes that people still use the 'hey, look what happened over here, it was so much worse' schtick to justify why something else was no big deal. That crowd really lacks in critical thinking.

Why should store A care about a guy who stole $20 of food when the two stores next to it were robbed at gunpoint the last two nights!

SMH

It shouldn’t amaze you.

To carry on your “intellectual” analogy, some people view what Tamayo did as akin to murder, while milly maker heads up duo was akin to jay-walking.

Doug Polk defended them. I don't think he's being honest. I think someone at WPT is telling him what to say.

What they did is clearly wrong. Nothing justifies dishonesty.

Sure I don't think a 3rd party was affected and it's not the worst thing that has ever happened at a poker table. I like that they got banned.

Yeah, again some of you guys are looking at this as fans of the sport of poker, confusing it with the NBA. It's gambling. People put up their own money, they aren't entertainers.

Last year, the winners brazenly cheated and committed a felony in Nevada. Should have been an immediate DQ and probably criminal prosecution. Not a firm talking to.

This year, no crime was committed, the only "cheating" that occurred was that you could make some convoluted argument they damaged the WSOP brand. I guess WSOP officials could have given them a talking to and tried to put a stop to it. But they didn't.

The argument seems to go:

They cheated.

Who was cheated? They won a casino promotion without violating the law or terms of the promotion and the casino paid up.

But they were colluding.

Against whom?

Nobody.

You can't collude against nobody.

But, for the 80 poker fan boys watching the stream, it tarnished the image of the sacred bracelet. Letting people make decisions about their own money damages the brand!

Disagree with the Fly's analogy a bit. This isn't even Jay walking.

It's more like inadvertently revealing to a kid that pro wrestling is scripted or that his favorite pop star doesn't write her own music.

Think I though of a great analogy for those who think this was a terrible thing these two players did.....

At the poker room I play most, they have a bad beat jackpot and high hand promos. I'd bet 500 times a day you can witness the following scenario take place....

Action folds around to the blinds, they make eye contact, ask if they want to chop, if they have an BB eligible hand they say they want to see the flop, the both put in $5 and check it down hoping to hit the BBJ or a high hand

But the casino does have rules, one of which is you can't talk about the BBJ during a hand. Which the players skirt but phrasing things different. Another rule is no automatically checking it down to the river. Players have to go thru the motions of physically or verbally checking each street along the way even if they already said they are checking it down.

Are all the players who do the above dishonest and cheaters?

It's pretty much the same thing, just much smaller stakes, no?

That's spot on. Heck, your case might be worse since the rest of the table has to sit and wait while they do this.

Another one might be that a sports bettor bets both sides of a game. A naive "fan" of sports betting might be disenchanted to learn that the bettor is not interested in picking the right side, or compiling a good record of wins and losses. Instead, he is trying to make the most money he can.

I have to agree with you. Never forget, Doug also unapologetically shilled Coinflex.

Code Coinflex Doug is an industry plant who does whatever he is told.

Eh, seeing this thread makes me more interested in watching WSOP TV coverage, which I haven't done for years. There's no such thing as bad publicity.

I like chilirob's breakdown above, although even those situations only truly rear their respective heads if it gets down to the final handful of players. The Bicknell-Foxen situation became a controversy when a) they ended up as two of the final three players, and b) the table was streamed.

Similarly, this ClubWPT thing needed a certain confluence of events: e.g. getting down to heads up with one eligible player and an opponent willing to go along with it.

Doug Polk's video got me thinking about another scenario when something shady could have happeend. Remember about 15 years ago when Tom Dwan had some massive bracelet bets going on, and ended up finishing second in some relatively small WSOP event? Talk about an opportunity for some shenanigans. If durrrr had won, he would have scored some massive amount no one actually knows for sure – supposedly as many as eight figures. Meanwhile, the actual winner got about $600K.

Of course, there were people on each side of that bet. But one can envision some crazy offers happening had Dwan's final opponent (whose name I can't remember) been someone willing to take part. "Hi, we have a metric f**kton coming our way from Phil Ivey if Dwan wins this. Can you find a way to finish second? We'll make up the difference in prize money and then some. 'ppreciate you."

Yes.

This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Simple Questions.

It took a combination of it being streamed, the info being public that someone gets an extra million if they get a bracelet and a massive chip deficit for the guy who needed to win. Even if he's just behind 2-1 in chips there are ways to dump chips that are way less obvious.like the trips vs the top pair hand. If he isn't down to almost nothing he can just call a couple of small bets, lose the hand and move on.

Never said the brand damage was universal but it is obvious that some posting here have increased negativity for WSOP. But your wanting to watch more only helps WSOP if they can somehow benefit.

Plus the rules are clear who gets to decide.

Poker has yet again taught me something about morals (and the lack thereof). The world in a nutshell.

I assume they benefit from having more people watch their tournament videos, or at least they believe they do. Not that they would just from me personally, but they broadcast tournaments because they think they benefit from people watching them.

I don't understand what you mean by your bolded comment.

The thing I never understood about this whole situation:

I buy into a tournament for $1k eg

I should be free to make ANY decision I choose fit at any point in every hand with my chips.

(With regards to a 766 flop or whatever,) if I've got a 6 or if I've got a 7 in a heads up pot no one should be judging if I raise or fold in that situation.

In the same way, if I have a medium flush and run into a higher flush where all the money has gone in. I have no recourse to say 'why didn't anyone tell me that was a bad play? Why didn't some1 stop me from doing that?'

If I want to fold, I'll fold and if I choose to bet, I'll bet. Or whatever.

I'm not getting it!!!

So if other players express the freedom to make any decision by colluding against you, you'd be fine with that?
You are free to raise fold check any hand you want
You are not free to cheat, is that really a hard distinction to make?

I kind of get that part.

My issue is with the WSOP investigation of the collusion.

(You could include the game theory concept of The Prisoners Dilemma in this thought.)

Make the assumption the other player in the HU will not admit to anything. You trust he/she/they will be silent about anything/everything.

I am getting 0 help from tournament directors, from casino staff, from other players on how to play individual hands:

Me: 'I have a medium flush on the turn. Should I call/fold/raise this big bet?'
Everyone I ask/everyone else nearby: [SILENCE].

Then the WSOP say we are going to investigate your play/the decisions I make in the hand to suggest possible cheating

???

The brand damage rule, which is quite standard in its form, says WSOP has complete discretion to decide if actions damage them. As long as they have reasonable belief, courts will defer to them.

Just because you, the collective you’s who watch more due to this, doesn’t mean that others are not turned off. Maybe they lose 1 good, long term viewer to gain 3 temporary new viewers. Is that good or bad for them in long run?

Simple reading of posts itt show that there definitely are some who have a less favorable view of WSOP now. Not you and not really me. A few of those who become highly vocal could hurt them.

It's not your money after entering the tournament. Kind of like part of a pot is not your's. You play for it, according to the rules.

Why are you obsessed with the definition of collusion? WSOP's statement specifically said:

"We have concluded that in order to uphold the integrity of the game and to uphold our official WSOP Tournament Rules, no winner will be recognized and no bracelet will be awarded for this year's tournament."

They don't say the word collusion a single time.

As for "its my money I can do what I want"...WSOP posts the official tournament rules and when you sign up, you agree to follow them. If you don't want to follow them, don't join.