Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!
Yaginuma vs Carroll. Carroll enters final table with 10 to 1 chip lead, Yaginuma gets $1 million dollar bonus from Club
I don't get why people think this is happening because the WSOP don't facilitate chops.
The EPT do facilitate chops and exactly the same thing would happen.
They let the players do a deal, but insist that a percentage of the prizepool is left on the table for the dealing players to play for - to maintain the integrity of the tournament and so someone actually earns the trophy.
The fact is, the WPT promo has impacted the integrity of the tournament, not the WSOP np chop rule.
All the WSOP can really do is pay the players and ban all WPT visibility, so no logos, patches etc.
As someone who is around playing many of the non-wsop venues during the summer. One thing will surely happen, regardless of how wsop/wpt handles this.The other venues with capacity and competency will ramp up and we will start to slowly see a migration from wsop to the Aria’s, Wynn’s (already host wpt i think), Venetians.The landscape is ripe for someone to make their series t
Not sure why and wouldn’t expect that at all, wsop has largest fields and is well run. Many fields are breaking records but it doesn’t seem like it as it doesn’t seem crowded and tournaments are run with only the smallest of hitches every now and then. The one big change, wsop+ app has been a great development.
Those claiming it wasn’t collusion as no third party was injured, might be right but doesn’t matter. Read a little farther to rule 40.f.
Basically anything that tarnishes WSOP image can be punished. What counts and what is punishment are solely at hosts discretion. So the no third party harm argument falls to the side.
The anti ethical thing that happened in this case was that the 2 HU professional players predetermined the outcome, or final winner of the tournament- that is a breach of the integrity of the game, and probably WSOP rules.
Here - the winner of the match and bracelet was predetermined , prior to the final hand , and outside of the rules of the tournament.
This is NOT the same situation as a back door equity chop prior to the tournament being completed. In ICM deals, there’s ALWAYS something left up top to play for - if the tournament is going to play to an end. that maintains the integrity of that tournament- in this case that would also be the bracelet.
Plainly, legit ICM deals don’t involve chip dumping, a clear violation of rules in any poker tournament anywhere. Chip dumping is cheating.
Something like this harms poker, the integrity of fair competition and the game , and not to mention of the harm to WSOP’s reputation.
These pros should have thought about that before so obviously dumping a HU poker match on live-stream to millions on YT.
WSOP should protect its brand and the integrity of the game - DQ to make an example - DQ and ban them both, including winnings.
I was curious to know at what point colluding becomes -EV. Not positive my math is correct but these are my assumptions.
If they decide to collude, there are 4 possible outcomes:
1. WSOP and WPT both pay.
2. WSOP and WPT both withhold.
3. WSOP pays and WPT withholds.
4. WSOP withholds and WPT pays.
If we assign a 10% probability that WPT withholds (payment of the $1M Promo Bonus) then the corresponding probability that WSOP withholds (payment of 1st and 2nd place prizes) would have to be 25%+ for colluding to become -EV*.
If we assign a 15% probability that WPT withholds, the WSOP probability (of withholding) goes down to 23%+.
*-EV defined as a value < the remaining WSOP prize pool - (1st and 2nd place.)
I was curious to know at what point colluding becomes -EV. Not positive my math is correct but these are my assumptions.If they decide to collude, there are 4 possible outcomes:1. WSOP and WPT both pay.2. WSOP and WPT both withhold.3. WSOP pays and WPT withholds.4. WSOP withholds and WPT pays.If we assign a 10% probability that WPT withholds (payment of the $1M Promo Bonus) the
Love it. Hahaha.
My poker brain was thinking the same way.
My thought was that it was definitely -EV purely based on the potential of a ban and loss of future earnings potential.
Not saying what they did was moral, but it's still interesting as a thought experiment.
I was curious to know at what point colluding becomes -EV. Not positive my math is correct but these are my assumptions.If they decide to collude, there are 4 possible outcomes:1. WSOP and WPT both pay.2. WSOP and WPT both withhold.3. WSOP pays and WPT withholds.4. WSOP withholds and WPT pays.If we assign a 10% probability that WPT withholds (payment of the $1M Promo Bonus) the
The smart thing to have done would have been to ask the WSOP TD if they were allowed to act together to make sure that Yagi won so they could split that $1 million bonus. Point blank ask if it was within their rules before they did.
Those claiming it wasn’t collusion as no third party was injured, might be right but doesn’t matter. Read a little farther to rule 40.f.
Basically anything that tarnishes WSOP image can be punished. What counts and what is punishment are solely at hosts discretion. So the no third party harm argument falls to the side.
This “catch all” rule wasn’t applied when Tamayo had a laptop team running real-time solvers and showing it to Tamayo during the FT. It would be a joke to for WSOP to suddenly act all heavy-handed on essentially a heads-up deal.
Those claiming it wasn’t collusion as no third party was injured, might be right but doesn’t matter. Read a little farther to rule 40.f.
Basically anything that tarnishes WSOP image can be punished. What counts and what is punishment are solely at hosts discretion. So the no third party harm argument falls to the side.
The third party is WPT
You don’t need a third party. Chip dumping is clearly against the rules.
You also don’t need a monetary harm to anyone. Any rule break is possibly subject to disqualification. And there are rules in place regarding possible DQ for being abusive to players or staff.
Regarding last year about not caring about laptop, it safe to say they did care because they passed new explicit rules against doing it this year. But chip dumping is explicitly outlined.
Read the collusion rule. Must be another participant. So at minimum could become a unnecessary debate.
Why would WSOP give a crap what happens to a competitor attempting to be a leach?
But again, WSOP need not even consider the collusion rule. Just go straight to rule 40.f which is entirely at their discretion on both a violation and punishment.
You don’t need a third party. Chip dumping is clearly against the rules.You also don’t need a monetary harm to anyone. Any rule break is possibly subject to disqualification. And there are rules in place regarding possible DQ for being abusive to players or staff. Regarding last year about not caring about laptop, it safe to say they did care because they passed new explicit ru
Chip dumping is defined as a subsection of the collusion rule. The collusion rule literally says most st harm or intend to harm “other Participants”. So yes chip dumping is against the rules, it is part of the collusion prohibition which requires “another Participant” under rule 41.b. Which is why I point the argument to rule 40.f or maybe 41.
I was curious to know at what point colluding becomes -EV. Not positive my math is correct but these are my assumptions.If they decide to collude, there are 4 possible outcomes:1. WSOP and WPT both pay.2. WSOP and WPT both withhold.3. WSOP pays and WPT withholds.4. WSOP withholds and WPT pays.If we assign a 10% probability that WPT withholds (payment of the $1M Promo Bonus) the
Shut Up Nerd!
There is a 0% chance WPT pays. There was also a 100% chance everyone watching the stream was going to notice immediately what they were doing.
The smartest thing those two morons could’ve done is have Moron #2 right before sitting down for HU pick up his phone and scream WHAT HOSPITAL IS MOM IN, run out the door, then disappear for two weeks.
It’s like the “stick out your arm” scene in Raging Bull.
Especially that fat **** Scott Seiver, it’s pretty obvious most of these pros that are staked and in make up probably chip dump to friends all the time, most of these pros are scumbags.
Well, for the WPT if they decide not to pay, it's up to the player affected to then sue them. The time and cost of lawsuits is expensive, and I imagine WPT is better positioned to handle a long drawn-out court battle compared to the player.Unless an attorney thinks they can easily win the case and takes it on a contingency basis.Then there's the flip-side, the WPT loses either
WPT probably loves all the free advertising so they will still give the money but you would have to be an idiot to play on their site with how dangerous cheating online already is and they probably won’t look into any cheating, hopefully gaming commission gets involved and revokes their license, poker really is filled with so many scumbags that are defending this, these were same *******s going crazy over Postle to an insane degree since it was played in some shithole in California who don’t care about cheating.
This aged well lol.
Dude...if that's actually you in the pic...first sorry...then def pot calling the kettle black.
