Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!

Well then, the WSOP needs to hire some two year olds. They knew that Yagi had this bonus to win. When they got to the final table all they had to do was go up to him and remind him that there can not be any collusion in a WSOP tournament, even heads up. Problem solved.

If that is truly the case, then I apologize about the playing a game for a living comment. However, it makes it even worse that you think this type of action is acceptable since you feel it doesn't affect anyone else and no one should care about it. Coming from a rec, that is a shame

Fly - Seriously why tf do any of you care? It was heads up, no other player was affected.

Fly - End of the day, as comical as it looked, it was basically a heads-up deal, which is done all the time, this just happened to be on tv for dozens to see.

Read the rules. Been posted itt several times. Collusion is spelled out in detail. One of the details is another participant must be harmed. That can’t happen by the rules heads up.

They should have told him and everyone still in, that any such deal multi-way or heads-up would result in immediate DQ with no prize money awarded to those DQd

I don’t know why you’re retrieving my past comments and bolding them, I said it and stand by it ffs. I get it, you disagree, now please get over it and move along.

That is what I said. When they saw he was at the final table and knew the bonus was in play, if they wanted to avoid any ambiguity and controversy, they should have went up and explained it to him.

Two points are different….first you stated collusion even heads up. Per the rules, collusion must involve a third participant. So collusion simply cannot happen heads up.

Second. They should have told EVERYONE left so a deal would be a corruption and get both DQ’d. You, twice, said they should tell Yagi. No you tell everyone.

This is not 2hat you said.

Now when to do it? Maybe final table, maybe 5 left, maybe heads up because prior to HU any deal not involving everyone would fall under collusion. The penalty for collusion is well understood.

Heck, once it became apparent what was happening, WSOP should have stepped in and admonished them saying stop or we end it right now and both of you get nothing.

So no what I said is not what you said.

lol nice, need more posters like you

Anyhow, we’ve debated a few times in this thread. I also don’t think it’s a travesty I do think they deserved the ban hammer. Can’t play with fire like that.

I would have been fine with no penalty. This ban seems overkill to me, many people would have done what they did. I doubt other players would feel threatened to be cheated if these guys are in the WSOP, probably be able to pick 1000+ players more shady in the main event every year. Ideal punishment IMO, no bracelet since winner most likely wouldn't have won and maybe a year suspension, anything more just hurts everyone, the players can't play anymore. WSOP loses two good customers. But hey, WSOP reserves the right.

There is no way I would have entertained the notion at any point. Not really due to moral reasons although I try to do what’s right.

But mostly due to fact that a huge ROI was already locked so no need to risk it. And I know what Caesars has banned others for doing and these guys getting banned was basically automatic.

I’ve brought this up a few times but Ali Imsorivic has had his stack picked up and been DQed in tournaments. So these guys might have to deal with that. You never know when a band of people might cry for integrity….especially if they are at same table…

Regarding WPT I don’t think a quick call means they were happy to make it. And externally they have to wear the happy face. Internally I’m not sure the people responsible are getting bonuses and promotions though.

Interesting to see how harsh the WSOP rules will be against this from next year. My guess is that any attempt to alter tournament outcome with deals will lead to DQ and ban. Splitting just money will still be allowed.

Two colluding pros who bring the game into disrepute and dont care at all about the optics of poker are not "good customers". Good riddance.

Exactly. Lmao@ calling these 2 good customers. Winning players who make your business look bad are horrendous customers. They should have lifetime banned Tamayo and his 2 scumbag friends last year as well.

With the legal pressure sweeps are under right now, there is no way WPT could have avoided paying unless the guy with the pass like...murdered the guy without the pass or something. They are trying to present themselves as a legitimate organization operating in a legal way, and not paying without the clearest of reasons would have blown their whole shaky story.

They are tacitly endorsing collusion and manipulation of WSOP outcomes, I don't know if I can agree that they come off looking great.

I'm perfectly cool with people disagreeing with me. I'm not even sure if these two guys knew each other well, or didn't know each other at all before this years WSOP. But just playing this tourney and sitting together for a while at the final table you are going to get to know each other a little. Everybody at that table is in a great spot, feeling good, making a lot of money.

They are on break and talking, probably a very normal thing even though they need to compete with one another. They then start talking about the $1,000,000 bonus. They work out a deal to let the one guy win to make $500k each. Seems like plenty of people would do this, it can't be just me.

It's funny in movies and in real life sometimes a player will purposely lose to another player. Often for noble reasons, or sometimes meta reasons and it's celebrated. Hell, the most recent example was in a movie I just saw this weekend, F1 where to one driver folded the best hand after showdown to build the younger guys confidence. Think maybe Lucky You ending was similar with a father/son thing. I understand it's the movies but to say it never happens in real life would not be true.

wsop not awarding the bracelet is a pretty clear reason. but they like the PR.

This is not collusion in the spirit of the definition. These are two guys who made a deal that made the most financial sense for both of them. Most medium sized tournys allow final table deal making but cuz the WSOP is all about their stupid bracelets, which mean nothing, so they have to have a "winner" for marketing purposes. Poker is about making money, not bracelets and "titles". These guys made the highest EV play which any self respecting pro should do.

It's WSOP's fault that they allow 3rd parties (WPT) to offer incentives to their pros on their tournament outcomes. It's pretty damn obvious a situation would arise like this had they known beforehand that one of the players had a side deal via his sponsor.

Now tell us how WSOP can legally prevent WPT forming a contract with an individual? It really isn't any different from WPT telling Yagi, you win and we will sign you up for a WPT sponsorship.

So how does WSOP stop that? Tell everyone you can't sign a promo deal with WPT or anyone else? That ain't gonna hold up in court.

These bans are pretty much always going to be lifetime initially. Then X time later, you can seek to have it lifted. Because how you handle it and how you act subsequently says much about you and whether it should be lifted.

Actually I think it’s probably as easy as saying don’t do it or else. They can refuse anyone’s business for non discriminatory reasons. Or just write it up in the rules that you sign where they can DQ at any point.

With all the side betting, promotions and deals going on during the WSOP, I am actually kinda surprised it took so long for something like this to happen.

Also think the legal aspects are kinda neboulous; I don't think there is any legal obligation for Carroll to play his best, or to put it simply - I don't think the WSOP can enforce anybody trying to win a tournament, especially in a situation like this where coming in 2nd could be more profitable.

Anything going further is pointless imo, especially the discussion re:collusion.

I like the username bud, but I don’t know why people think Caesars/WSOP have their hands tied and won’t be able to enforce this in the future.

It will be trivially easy to do so. After the fact they can dish out a ban hammer like it was Halloween candy. But they could just put in a rule that any third party bet or sponsorship worth more than say 9th place in the particular tournament is opening door for DQ/ban.

Now people could operate in secret but the purpose of the promotion is the publicity. It’s all moot though as it’s likely WPT and others won’t try this again

If the above didn’t get any kind of ban-hammer, then I think it’s beyond ridiculous that the two got lifetime bans, if true. No bracelet awarded seems enough to me, maybe make them sit next year out, but lifetime? After what Tamayo did and WSOP did nada?? There existed “general integrity of game” rules back then as well btw.