Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!

Why would this carry any modicum of weight?

"This thing (colluding 5handed) that absolutely no one is accusing them of? I didn't see them do it."

modicum needs to be used more

WPT certainly didn’t care as Mike Leah was chip-dumped big time so he could secure a WPT win. Though if I remember correctly that WPT tournament may not have been a televised one so maybe that made a difference. Point is, this chit happens all over poker tournaments when heads up.

Well maybe this chit won’t ever happen again, especially at WSOP

I know I’ll never steal free sandwiches again

You continue to double down on your lack of integrity and morality, even when faced with the fact that the 3rd player was almost certainly involved in this. Constantly trying to point out that other players and organizations cheat to help validate your position on this issue is scummy. Nothing you say moving forward should carry any weight to the majority of posters on this site as you have shown the type of person you are.

They are banned from Caesars, not WSOP. But they can’t even set foot in the parking lot, that’s how serious this is…

So they can play online for bracelets at least. And in 10-15 years if WSOP moves

Catching up on this late after the info in Negreanu's vlog. Of course, we know the odd/even system the two players used heads up. However, has anyone gone back to look back at the way Carroll and Yaginuma played before heads-up play began?

I was previously in the camp that no other player was involved, thus there's kind of a no-harm, no-foul to this. This changes given the info that Josh Reichard was aware of the deal, and it seems this element may have forced WSOP to act accordingly with some sanctions.

The AXs va AYs between Carroll and Yagi all in while 3 remained where Yagi sucks out making a wheel leans against collusion at that point.

However, the final hand three way, Reichert losing with pocket 3s seems out of place given the obvious ICM.

I am not suggesting Reichert was in on it. He might have felt it was effectively 2:1 where Carroll was going to work to keep Yagi in so he chose to play more aggressively, esp Carroll. I am not saying any of this is what has happened. It is only a couple hands but they did stand out to me. I am almost purely cash player and only at low stakes do my analysis is superficial and very limited.

Thanks. And no, not only was Reichert not likely in on it, but he easily could have been determined as the wronged third party to further justify sanctions against the top two.

Did anybody check this?

There's nothing tricky about the tax situation.

Violating WSOP rules by agreeing to a chop is not a violation of any US income tax rules.

If the winner has to pay out a share of his $1M free roll bounty to his opponent, that's a valid (and intelligent !!!) expense.

The winner and loser combine to pay taxes on the aggregate post chop winnings which is the same as the aggregate pre-chop winnings. The government comes out whole.

So after taxes on that 1M and all things reflected Carroll earned an extra 200K or so?

Don’t let your derangement cloud the fact that I was only saying that WPT shouldn’t care how this wen’t down as they have essentially sanctioned this behavior in the past in their own tournaments. Now, carry-on with your rabid TDS.

No one suggested a chop agreement was a tax violation. But correctly and fairly structuring the chop is trickier than you believe. It can be done but when tournament sponsor is not involved.

I don’t know, I think the tax situation here might be ambiguous. It’s not entirely clear to me that Player A giving Player B a share of the $1 million windfall from WPT constitutes a gambling win or gambling expense. It might need to be categorized as a gift. Or payment for a service? It wasn’t part of the prize pool of the tournament, and it wasn’t won by Player B through gambling. If it’s a gift, the whole thing is taxable income to Player A, and then also subject to a gift tax on the transaction.

I took some tax law in law school, but I’m not a tax lawyer, so I’m not an expert on the intracacies. But I think anyone other than a tax lawyer claiming they know the answer for certain is on shaky ground.

If Player A fills out a 1099, it's not a gift.

Nobody cares about a deal. It's the chip dumping that's the issue.

Actually sums this up nicely. Deals just split the money, chip dumping changes the tournament outcome.

Gift tax is a misnomer. Should be gift reporting. Iow A pays tax on the full amount. The gift to B is not taxed generally but if over $19K A must file the gift form, form 709 iirc. The amount that exceeds $19K is deducted from A lifetime exemption.

That is one way to structure the transaction. But there are others. Could be a fee. Could be a prize split. They could set up a share deal. Or other ways. More than one but not all would likely be legal if done correctly. But definitely not a simple straightforward thing.

Not quite pal, I’m a proud rec-hobbyist with decent MTT results over the years in WPT, EPT, WSOP, etc. I would never wish to “play a game for a living”. Get over yourself.

Yea the 33 shove seemed fishy to me, given ICM, but if you know that it is 2 against 1 then ICM is kinda out of the window anyways and a play like that makes a lot more sense. Also makes sense if he is in on it too, but the investigation seems to have cleared him and tbh he is a likely source of info for it.

Buddy, you and I are on the same wavelength . So well said, such greedy self centered bastards out there. It makes me sick.

After a week or so of being able to digest the situation, my conclusion...

There doesn't always have to be a bad guy in every controversy!

I think that is the case here. It was just a unique situation.

The Players

Don't know anything about these two guys, but by all accounts they seem like good guys. They are poker pro's who are naturally inclined to look for any edge to profit. This WPT million dollar promo highly incentivized something like this. They probably made the deal thinking it didn't really hurt anyone, except maybe WPT. Don't think of them as grifters are unethical personally, I know others disagree.

WPT

They seem happy to pay the $1,000,000 bonus. If any party has the biggest gripe it would be them. But it seems they realize this promo caused this situation. No bad intentions, stuff like this just happens sometimes. They are just going to pay the players and take the publicity. They come out of it looking great.

WSOP

They were put in this situation through not fault of their own, which sucks for them. But not much damage was done to their brand if any, they just felt the need to do something to discourage shennanagins. Especially after last year with the Tamayo stuff (which I personally felt was worse) and other years where it was pretty obvious deals were made behind the scenes.

It was just a recipe for controversy, no villains.

-The players won an extra 500k each but can't play at Caesers properties or WSOP

-WPT has to pay out an extra $1,000,000 but gets a ton of publicity and good will

- WSOP gets to send a message they probably wanted to send last year but weren't ready yet.

Each party making the best of a tough situation. Now hopefully it just goes away and everyone moves on. I'd imagine all 3 parties are agreeable to that.

Everyone keeps saying WPT is quite happy to pay the 1M but I seriously doubt it. They already paid out one of these already so whatever added publicity there is for the 2nd is much less effective.

They just more or less probably feel they have to pay due to many factors. Also don’t agree they come out looking great. As you say they were the cause, with some pros referring to it as a scumbag promotion. They don’t look generous, they just had a weak position and knew immediately they had to submit.

AFAIK they are just banned from Caesars. So technically I believe they can play on wsop online. And then wsop if it eventually moves away from Caesars properties.