Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!
Yaginuma vs Carroll. Carroll enters final table with 10 to 1 chip lead, Yaginuma gets $1 million dollar bonus from Club
So unless WPT now goes back on their word, which would now look REALLY bad, the golden ticket is getting paid.
That article was from 4 days ago, and I believe was just Polk saying so.
ClubWPT WANTS to pay the million, that’s what they were hoping for, it’s great marketing for them. Now the only wrinkle is with no bracelet actually awarded, did ClubWPT insure out the potential $1M payout, if so the insurer has legit reason to not pay out policy.
They still might have to. Id be interested to hear Bob Narcesian's take. Just because they put something in their rules doesn't mean gaming would side with them.
Ofc they might not win in court. But this brand protection rule appears pretty standard. I don’t think any legit argument can be made that WSOP brand was dinged. Little doubt that whatever were their actions, the brand damage was done by Yagi and Carroll. Proving there was some kind of deal would be easy unless they were willing to commit tax fraud.
If I am providing a forum and you agree to use it and then intentionally damage my brand, liability is obvious. And this in general has already been upheld in courts.
Now the loser pays clause is a bigger stretch. It is likely just a fear tool
Now you are suggesting tax fraud. With this publicity I doubt they want to start down that road.
It was a relatively silly thing that I was replying to, but not necessarily. After they “proved” they were innocent by Carroll divulging his bank statement did not include a payment from Yagi he could certainly have declared it on taxes.
It was a relatively silly thing that I was replying to, but not necessarily. After they “proved” they were innocent by Carroll divulging his bank statement did not include a payment from Yagi he could certainly have declared it on taxes.
But Carroll still must get the money. When Yagi gifts him more than $19k, Yagi must file form 709 to document this gift against lifetime exception. So unless Carroll is taking gifts between 5 and 50 years, it is still tax fraud.
That still wouldn't have stopped what happened here.
And while I've said on here I'd rather come in 20th or whatever in the main for 300k than win a bracelet for 290k, overall they're a great marketing gimmick which is why they don't facilitate chops. The lure of winning braclets brings people in not the lure of negotiating for them.
No, the reason why they don’t facilitate chops has nothing to do with the lure of the bracelet as the bracelet must always remain in place to play for.
Reasons would include
1) Eliminate the hassle
2) keep the lure of top $$$ being very high
3) Keep drama highest
While there are certainly back room deals I like that they don’t facilitate chops. It’s the WSOP, deal with pressure of pay jumps
But Carroll still must get the money. When Yagi gifts him more than $19k, Yagi must file form 709 to document this gift against lifetime exception. So unless Carroll is taking gifts between 5 and 50 years, it is still tax fraud.
Ugh I got roped into this silly convo
But you are not saying anything against what I’m saying. Yes Carroll still must get the money. But it doesn’t have to be deposited into his bank account and both parties can still handle taxes correctly.
That article was from 4 days ago, and I believe was just Polk saying so.
ClubWPT WANTS to pay the million, that’s what they were hoping for, it’s great marketing for them. Now the only wrinkle is with no bracelet actually awarded, did ClubWPT insure out the potential $1M payout, if so the insurer has legit reason to not pay out policy.
Polk was presumably speaking for Club WPT higher ups. And it was indicated regardless of findings so one would think it was a possibility Yagi would not be awarded the bracelet.
I don’t see why they would want to pay out the million though. It’s already gotten the publicity and there’s no one that doesn’t think this was rigged.
Had they simply said they would wait for wsop investigation and abide by their ruling they would have still gotten all of the publicity and no one would be shaking their fist that they should pay Yagi. And they already paid one out this summer.
No, the reason why they don’t facilitate chops has nothing to do with the lure of the bracelet as the bracelet must always remain in place to play for.Reasons would include1) Eliminate the hassle2) keep the lure of top $$$ being very high3) Keep drama highestWhile there are certainly back room deals I like that they don’t facilitate chops. It’s the WSOP, deal with pressure of p
Except if the bracelet remained in play here, Carroll still wins 90%+ of the time and there is no WPT mil to chop up. That is what makes this different.
If Yagi went to WPTgold and negotiated a buyout, then he and Carroll negotiated a chop, and they they played solely for the bracelet. Probably no one cares or finds out.
We all know that worse deals have occurred at WSOP. But with less than 10% of chips, there was little apparent leverage to get WPTgold to agree to a buyout. Also this buyout would almost had to happen long before hu.
But as played out here, they had to do a massive chip dump. That was going to be tough. Hands like the top pair vs middle trips were going to make it tough.not impossible, but tough. The chip distribution was too disparate to make it simple, quick and easy.
Except if the bracelet remained in play here, Carroll still wins 90%+ of the time and there is no WPT mil to chop up. That is what makes this different.If Yagi went to WPTgold and negotiated a buyout, then he and Carroll negotiated a chop, and they they played solely for the bracelet. Probably no one cares or finds out. We all know that worse deals have occurred at WSOP. But wi
I don’t disagree. I’m tired of hearing about the WSOP no chop policy in relation to all of this lol (was never a factor)
While there are certainly deals that have taken place it certainly cut down on them. And with elimination of November nine there’s less time to make arrangements and get ducks in a row for that particular final table.
I am so glad that I stopped playing poker seriously many years ago. The industry is full of grifters, cheats, and all around morally bankrupt people. It's hard to believe so many supposed pros don't have an issue with this. In a vacuum, sure it is not the worst thing in the world, but all they care about is me me me and what else can be done to suck every ounce of EV and small edges out in their favor. They have no future vision and no regard for where the game is today compared to where it was 25+ years ago.
The WSOP is special to so many recs and casual players because of the allure of a bracelet (understandably not as much as it used to when there were less events), the massive prize pools, the pressure of large pay jumps, ICM considerations, and the excitement and notoriety that the series gets, especially the main event. Allowing players to freely chop would kill the brand and slowly drive the casual players away. The whole reason you have such a large ROI and such soft fields in the WSOP is directly because of these things, and now you just want to throw that out the window just to reduce your variance with no regard to the people and the reasons that you have this great opportunity to begin with.
You already drove the nail in the coffin of online poker. Your halfway there with live poker now and advocating to push that further along. Good luck with that. It truly is a shame.
Bottom line IMHO, if all 9 players at the FT knew and could watch him vs the CL or any other player and they then get to heads up then it is what it is and at least it would play out naturally and then they can do whatever they want who cares.
If they were the only ones that knew, and avoided each other but played hard against the others then that’s disgusting and they should be DQed.
When I try to sign in from my hotel room in the Horseshoe, I get told that it is not available here.
When I try to sign in from my hotel room in the Horseshoe, I get told that it is not available here.
Have you tried connecting or disconnecting from their WiFi.
Also cycle your network connection by turning of your cellular data turning on airplane mode than off and back to cellular data
Bottom line IMHO, if all 9 players at the FT knew and could watch him vs the CL or any other player and they then get to heads up then it is what it is and at least it would play out naturally and then they can do whatever they want who cares. If they were the only ones that knew, and avoided each other but played hard against the others then that’s disgusting and they should
More nuanced take than most who think "you can't collude heads up", but still I don't think any collusion should be tolerated under these circumstances heads up or otherwise.
Allowing shenanigans heads up here even if everyone knew about the bonus opens up huge potential for "implicit" collusion.
Do you want players having to take a 3rd party bonus and the potential for a deal into their decision making 3+ handed?
More nuanced take than most who think "you can't collude heads up", but still I don't think any collusion should be tolerated under these circumstances heads up or otherwise.Allowing shenanigans heads up here even if everyone knew about the bonus opens up huge potential for "implicit" collusion.Do you want players having to take a 3rd party bonus and the potential for a deal in
Even though all I heard has been about heads up, there is no difference between that and the deals that are made 3, 4, 5 handed, etc. They could have gotten down to 3 people and decided to collude and make a deal for Yagi to win and split the $1 million. If there are only 3 people left colluding, then they are not colluding against "another participant". They could have done this with 4 people or 5 people.
While it didn't effect play pre-headsup (by all reviews and as far as anyone knows), had this been allowed to stand with no consequence, I guarantee you it would have affected 3+ handed play in future events. Take a very simple example.
Player A, no gold pass: 10M chips
Player B, no gold pass: 1M chips
Player C, gold pass: 1M chips
Even if there is not so much as a wink exchanged between any of the players, are you legitimately telling me going forward player A is going to play just as hard vs player C as they do against player B? Or is player A going to be thinking "If I can just bust player B, I can dump this bracelet to player C and pick up an extra half million, and the WSOP won't do anything about it"?
I just can't understand all these supposed pros who can't see beyond the end of their nose.
What about if when they get to the final table, Yagi tells everyone there is a $1 million bonus if he wins, and if he wins he will split the bonus with the other heads up player. He agrees not to play any hands except for 1 an orbit where he gets dumped enough chips to stay alive. The other players just play normal against each other, because each one wants to make the final two. Since every player is a part of it, is it ok?
I would assume neither Yagi or Carroll would think it was worth it getting lifetime banned over an extra 350K or whatever it is net of taxes
But they can still play at plenty of places. Although maybe the integrity crowd will do their protest thing like they did to get Ali Imsorivic’s stack picked up in that tournament in Texas.
And once they see a good player like Carroll at their table they seem to get an extra dose of integrity. DQ that man to make room for fish on his fourth bullet.
"Deals are nothing"
Except now it was.
Soon this thread has 400 posts, all the rest of the WSOP 650.
What about if when they get to the final table, Yagi tells everyone there is a $1 million bonus if he wins, and if he wins he will split the bonus with the other heads up player. He agrees not to play any hands except for 1 an orbit where he gets dumped enough chips to stay alive. The other players just play normal against each other, because each one wants to make the final t
That is my point
Final 9.
“Hey I’m Yaga I have a gold pass”
Each of the players then ask for an appropriate piece, he doesn’t want to part with the full million because ICM, Chip stacks, etc it get massively complicated cause taxes and they just say **** it normal tournament but now people prob gunning for yaga(good for him imo)
Final 9.
only Yaga knows he is the sole holder of the gold pass til heads up.
Now it’s heads up and Yaga says it’s time to chop, and this happens it’s still ugly but I care 99% less
https://youtu.be/fhZeZretIDM?si=KGtc2moY...
Lee Jones calls out Club WPT Gold for industrial sabotage.
I have this image in my head of Yagi on a beach in the Bahamas earning 20% laughing at Carrolls expense. It couldn't happen, could it?
Not sure how well they knew each other- I'd ask for the same but it's also hard to trust someone to pay you 800k with no record of anything.
This was my thought, he would essentially have to immediately send me Bitcoin or something prior to starting heads up play for the difference between first and second.
I still probably would not have done it. There was a non 0 chance that the WSOP found out and also decided to DQ us, not pay us and bump rest of field up 2 spots. Not worth the risk for me.
I have this image in my head of Yagi on a beach in the Bahamas earning 20% laughing at Carrolls expense. It couldn't happen, could it?
I would need an INSANE amount of trust to give up the almost assured 1st place in the hopes that the guy I dump to actually ponies up in the end, because I can't imagine you have any legal recourse at the end, and if you want to out the guy for not paying up, you out yourself in the process.
