Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!
Yaginuma vs Carroll. Carroll enters final table with 10 to 1 chip lead, Yaginuma gets $1 million dollar bonus from Club
Is there any evidence of a deal and chip dumping? Other then the video and hands?
-Did they say something on stream admitting to it? Or does WSOP have some other proof?
If not, these guys just need to not say anything to anyone other then they tried their best to win and they are golden.
Let WSOP or WPT try to prove their case in court. Good luck with that.
I really think this is a interesting spot overall. And it would be crazy if the WSOP decides to not pay out ~$2.2M that the players should have won. If that happens they have to sue right?
No casino wants to be part of a “they don’t pay winners” case. Can you imagine trying to explain chip dumping and online “ticket” promotions to a jury full of retirees and out of work first generation immigrants? Hell, they’d likely vote for the plaintiffs hoping to get a slice.
Pay ban forget. Costs WSOP nothing, WPT ldo isn’t paying, and nobody the casino cares about is going to be watching teh lolz videos.
And agreed these two deserve nothing for not remembering Doyle’s omg I just puked n’ pooped my pants ruse.
Tuchman and Stapes were great. That one hand where Tuch accurately predicted that Carroll was going to reraise 83o and other guy was going to four bet 87o was outstanding.
Someone said that back in the day they knew how to cheat. Looking tough dumping chips with rags isn't the way.
I mean, 83o. At least he understood not to fold aces.
If WSOP is interested in protecting their brand: have an independent third party - or a panel of well respected arbitrators eg. Galfond, Ike etc - review 3 handed+ play for collusion.
What happened HU is obviously not relevant.
At most WSOP could decide to forfeit their sacred bracelet or whatever, but should always pay out as long as their is no evidence of foul play 3 handed+
I understand that, but at least personally I believe that theft is a theft, even if from a wealthier and more powerful entity. (not necessarily saying that this is a theft, but that the argument wsop is rich, is not relevant)However, on top of that, it's not even a case of a hungry orphan stealing food from Walmart; in this case, Jesse is quite certainly financially well off, a
It's not theft or a scam.
A bet between two people on a bracelet or whatever is a gentleman's agreement between two people.
This is a casino promotion. Yes, the casino is a big, scummy corporation that would happily see you lose your home due to addiction. But that's only part of the difference. Casinos make these promotions up to suck people in and take their money. They make the rules of the promotion. They invite you to try to make a profit off the promotion. If you can beat the promotion within the law and rules, you're just beating them at their own game. It's like counting cards.
Neither online poker sites nor the WSOP really care if people are cheated or colluded against, regardless of what the laws/rules are. So it's silly for a player to care if those entities are outwitted within the rules that they wrote themselves.
I'm gonna disagree with your statement, they have a LOT of leeway in their decision here based on the rules Participants agree to be held by:
In general, I thinks stupidity should be punished. My only consideration is that whats more stupid? Getting all the way to HU only to cheat or the insane Golden ticket + win = +1Million promotion.
Having thought it through a bit more about how to actually resolve it.
If it was up to me, though I don't love it, I end up paying and awarding the bracelet; what they did doesn't rise to the level of money forfeiture. I also tell them see you at the 2027 WSOP in Vegas and you're banned from all WSOP events until then.
If I was WPT, I'd contest paying the million, but accept I'm probably going to lose. By doing so, you keep your name in the news cycle, you show that "We care about the integrity of our promotions", but also that you do pay out.
As for the two guys and the people supporting them? I guess I learned that when there's enough money involved, people can find a way to convince themselves that it's ok to violate the spirit of an situation. I'm sure these guys will look at it as "cool story bro, I made a million bucks and I don't care what you, WPT, or the WSOP think of me as a person", and fair enough if they do. It still won't stop me from thinking they've done wrong here, and that if enough money is involved, they'll do wrong in the future.
Everyone saying "deals happen all the time" - not for the bracelet. Can the WSOP stop it, maybe not in the end, but the players have at least to me some responsibility to at least make it not so obvious that people can't see it's happening as it happens.
Everyone saying "the bracelet has no prestige" - why do you think the WSOP is the bucket list item for so many recs and the biggest tournament in the world by far? It's the history and prestige of it.
Everyone saying "the casino is evil so you shouldn't feel bad for them" - I don't think someone else doing wrong gives me license to do things wrong to them.
It's insane they haven't paid or awarded a bracelet. It's a huge gift to WPT. Best nachos and million dollar tip ever.
Now you have to win the lottery to FT WSOP, dodge collusion and you still might not even get paid. Sign up for WPT today!
If I had to guess why, WSOP wants to audit the mtt to ensure there was no collusion prior to HU. Which is prudent and will appease those with bunched up panties.
You can cite this as your big "gotcha" but the Flip and go was still a fair and equal competition where people tried to win. That's what a bracelet represents.
I dont really believe anything will happen, but IMO, the WSOP will come a lot better out of this if they say "These guys clearly broke the rules, so the bracelet winner is Reichart and everyone else have their payouts bumped accordingly" rather than "they clearly broke the rules but we dont care, please keep playing our tournaments where cheating has 0 consequences". The Tamayo bs last year where cheating had no consequences, now this. At some point the word of mouth about the WSOP will be "pros always cheat in this stuff and the WSOP dont care" unless the WSOP take a stand against some cheaters.
Also this entire debate really shows who out there have principles and integrity and who doesnt. Shocker that people like Scott Seiver and Patrick Leonard see no problem with defrauding a promotion /s. The people in favor of winning the WPT promotion in this way are people who would cheat if the money was big enough and they believed they would get away.
I dont really believe anything will happen, but IMO, the WSOP will come a lot better out of this if they say "These guys clearly broke the rules, so the bracelet winner is Reichart and everyone else have their payouts bumped accordingly" rather than "they clearly broke the rules but we dont care, please keep playing our tournaments where cheating has 0 consequences". The Tamayo
I agree with this. Horrible take by Seiver. By his logic its alright for a broke poker player to cheat hom because he's a multi millionaire.
I think the idea of paying and then banning both of them might be the best solution.
It’s interesting that even though the WSOP says neither one has been paid and the bracelet has not been awarded, Yaginuma is still credited as having won the event on the WSOP’s POY standings. If he did manage to win another bracelet this year, he would be in the POY lead, and that could certainly be considered to harm other players.
Also this entire debate really shows who out there have principles and integrity and who doesnt. Shocker that people like Scott Seiver and Patrick Leonard see no problem with defrauding a promotion /s. The people in favor of winning the WPT promotion in this way are people who would cheat if the money was big enough and they believed they would get away.
Who exactly got cheated? The site that ran a promotion probably hoping this exact thing would happen?
exactly. who lost money? Who got cheated? WPT made the deal knowing stuff like this could happen.
Pros mocking recs for wanting a fair game is not only scummy, but bad for their high roller circle jerk long term. I personally don't give a **** what WSOP does here but after last year, turning a blind eye to this means anyone not in the club (and paying attention) is much less likely to patronize the product in the future. And anyone who thinks this is going to send millions rushing to sign up for Club WPT Gold is dreaming.
exactly. who lost money? Who got cheated? WPT made the deal knowing stuff like this could happen.
It’s not necessary for anyone or entity to have lost money, although it can hurt the wsop brand.
There are many rules that you are agreeing to when registering and if you don’t follow them are at risk of disqualification.
As someone who is around playing many of the non-wsop venues during the summer. One thing will surely happen, regardless of how wsop/wpt handles this.
The other venues with capacity and competency will ramp up and we will start to slowly see a migration from wsop to the Aria’s, Wynn’s (already host wpt i think), Venetians.
The landscape is ripe for someone to make their series the “new” status quo. There are many people just fed up with how wsop has been doing business for years.
As someone who is around playing many of the non-wsop venues during the summer. One thing will surely happen, regardless of how wsop/wpt handles this.The other venues with capacity and competency will ramp up and we will start to slowly see a migration from wsop to the Aria’s, Wynn’s (already host wpt i think), Venetians.The landscape is ripe for someone to make their series t
It won't be the Nugget out there yanking guarantees on people
(After they agreed to collude) the players made a big mistake by not properly valuing the probabilities that WPT and/or WSOP won't pay out. I think it's very reasonable to assume that both probabilities are a non-zero value and with all the uncertainty, it would have been prudent to error on the side of caution.
