Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!
Yaginuma vs Carroll. Carroll enters final table with 10 to 1 chip lead, Yaginuma gets $1 million dollar bonus from Club
Huh? Who’s boot licking? Sure wasn’t me in my post. You are shaking your fist at a ghost, bro.
But while on topic I will say that WSOP is incredibly well run from a logistics standpoint. Huge fields breaking records going off with no big hitches. No opinion no knowledge nor care on Club WPT.
You’re right, my message was more to the people saying how egregiously bad it was. You just happened to be the post that pointed out who gets financially hurt from this collusion although overall it seems club WPT gets hurt more. Plus very few people are aware how heavily Russ Hamilton was and probably is still invested into this company. F em
You’re right, my message was more to the people saying how egregiously bad it was. You just happened to be the post that pointed out who gets financially hurt from this collusion although overall it seems club WPT gets hurt more. Plus very few people are aware how heavily Russ Hamilton was and probably is still invested into this company. F em
Yes certainly Club WPT gets hurt more in terms of immediate dollars. I had no clue Russ was/is involved, I have no interest in online poker but if I did that would be enough to keep me away.
But these guys were playing with fire. It’s now a headline on ESPN and it was so blatant.
Tuchman and Stapes were great. That one hand where Tuch accurately predicted that Carroll was going to reraise 83o and other guy was going to four bet 87o was outstanding.
Would someone be willing to lay out why they think the WSOP has a claim to be aggrieved here? From reading this thread so far I haven't really seen a complete argument. Something like "no one wants to be fodder when 3-4 guys are left" doesn't match what we know so far. This was a HU deal, from what I can gather, so 3-4 players left is completely irrelevant as a comparison imo.W
I've seen on X someone say, 'if WSOP just threw up their hands, said oh well' and paid-out then this would just go away. While I agree that doing so may have been their best course of action, I can also see why they would want to protect the integrity of their games and their brand. Although one could argue that the prestige of being a bracelet winner has been recently diluted, there still is significant prestige and WSOP should take steps to insure that the value/perceived value of a WSOP bracelet remains intact.
The key variable here is visibility. If this wasn't streamed on PokerGO, or any other platform, it would be virtually impossible for this to become controversial. There are at the very least public relations implications if WSOP just ignores a pretty blatant chip dump (even in a seemingly innocuous scenario like HU in an MTT.) I saw another post on X where someone said that Carroll should have just sat-out and blinded off (thus circumventing WSOP TOS violations.) If he did, do you think that WSOP should take action against him? They probably would ban him or at least suspend him from some/all future WSOP events.
The main concern of WSOP is how this (collusion) will be perceived by recreational players.
Pros won't care or at the very least, will realize that any collusion (by the final 2 players) doesn't hurt anyone (directly.) We also have to consider context. The "Milly Maker" is pitched/geared/marketed directly to recs. There is a large subset of recs who will hear of this 2nd hand, or just by reading a headline/hearing a sound-bite. They won't bother to delve into the details and won't read posts like this. Their take away won't be, "hey no one got hurt, it's no big deal." They will be far more likely to think that there was foul play and that the bracelet has been compromised. This IS NOT good for the WSOP brand.
The success of future WSOP events depends on recs believing that they have a fair shot and winning. Contrary to (the belief of most pros) recs are not idiots. They already realize that they are at a skill disadvantage and they will definitely be sensitive to any additional factors that will affect their winning expectation.
Not sure what’s hard to get, WSOP brand is clearly hurt if they didn’t something about clear collusion. Just paying them out and hoping it blows over really wasn’t an option.
Grunge:
Why would any poker player give a **** about this? Club WPT got angled? OH THE HUGE MANATEEE!!!!
This is pretty transparently a chip dump but I applaud the audacity
Like, imagine how much of a simp you have to be to be simping for the house
Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a sh*t...!
Now that I’ve read the thread….lol
Agreeing to chops accepted as a wink and a nod has been commonplace in the WSOP for ****ing years. The play after the fact is eyeroll inducing but these things are understood even though they’re not enforceable
How is this any different? Cuz club WPT was
stupid enough to do this promotion in the WSOP where people regularly make deals to chop and execute it their own way cuz WSOP won’t enforce or acknowledge them?
To all the Karens ITT: lol you
If the WSOP decides to make an example of these two and not pay them or award the bracelet, does WPT then say "well, you didn't win according to the WSOP, thus you aren't eligible for this prize"
Or, do they still award the million and use it to paint themselves as "the good guys" and the WSOP as the "bad guys"?
Now that I’ve read the thread….lolAgreeing to chops accepted as a wink and a nod has been commonplace in the WSOP for ****ing years. The play after the fact is eyeroll inducing but these things are understood even though they’re not enforceableHow is this any different? Cuz club WPT wasstupid enough to do this promotion in the WSOP where people regularly make deals to chop and
Perhaps I missed it but I haven’t seen anyone personally outraged. Just people accurately pointing out the obvious fact that being so blatant/dumb was stupid and not worth it. And it looks like it might come back to haunt them.
Perhaps I missed it but I haven’t seen anyone personally outraged. Just people accurately pointing out the obvious fact that being so blatant/dumb was stupid and not worth it. And it looks like it might come back to haunt them.
Randomly scrolling this page and landed on this dude who seems pretty personally outraged
Well for one, the results of this Heads Up portion of the Tournament in NO WAY reflect what would have happened in a "chop". When one guy holds a 9-1 chip advantage Heads Up, what would the results of the chop be? Has there ever, in the history of Poker Tournaments, been a situation where the Player in a 1-9 chip disadvantage was awarded the Tournament Winner as the result of
This promotion isn't well thought out and creates a nightmare for the wsop. No way around it.
To some extent I can understand players wanting to capture the extra equity and it would be difficult to enforce, but you simply should not allow any deal making under these circumstances.
The possibility of a deal will effect 3+ handed play.
why didn't they just agree to a chop where the short stack got 1st place and big stack got more money - that's happened a bunch just from people who really wanted the bracelet
You mean the very same WSOP that has jacked rake (while hiding it under “dealer fees” to skew overall rake) all while providing worse service than ever? Or maybe you mean Club WPT. The very same Club WPT that is owned heavily, maybe even overwhelmingly by Russ Hamilton. I think it was silly to pull this stunt and it most likely will get the 1m bonus rejected. But bo
Wait one moment... is there any evidence or truth that i missed that Russ Hamilton is anyway part let alone owns any part of clubwptgold?
Just .02 that if I was the WSOP, I’d pay’em and ban’em, completely wash my hands with no statement, then refer all questions to the parent corp legal department.
Just the simplest efficiency, make it all go away.
You’re right, my message was more to the people saying how egregiously bad it was. You just happened to be the post that pointed out who gets financially hurt from this collusion although overall it seems club WPT gets hurt more. Plus very few people are aware how heavily Russ Hamilton was and probably is still invested into this company. F em
Please elaborate or post a link that would point me in the right direction.
Just .02 that if I was the WSOP, I’d pay’em and ban’em, completely wash my hands with no statement, then refer all questions to the parent corp legal department.
Just the simplest efficiency, make it all go away.
It wouldn’t all go away due to blatant nature of it along with pure comedy of Tuch and Stapes on YouTube clips. Then Club WPT may also contest keeping it on the news.
If the WSOP decides to make an example of these two and not pay them or award the bracelet, does WPT then say "well, you didn't win according to the WSOP, thus you aren't eligible for this prize"
Or, do they still award the million and use it to paint themselves as "the good guys" and the WSOP as the "bad guys"?
They have to pay. Wsop has no other recourse.
Imagine spending over an hour psuedo playing heads up in an attempt to cover up a deal that you believe since you are heads up you are "legally" allowed to do.
Raise, reraise, fold every hand. Done in 5 minutes. What are you worried about?
I've seen on X someone say, 'if WSOP just threw up their hands, said oh well' and paid-out then this would just go away. While I agree that doing so may have been their best course of action, I can also see why they would want to protect the integrity of their games and their brand. Although one could argue that the prestige of being a bracelet winner has been recently diluted,
Appreciate the post.
Maybe that is enough of a reason to do something here if you're the WSOP, as you think the value of a bracelet is a thing you want to keep high/rare/clean.
Completely agree that if this was a stud8 FT with 155K for first and no PokerGo no one cares at all about this.
I think the sit out angle is really interesting. IDK how the rules would apply if he just said something like "I just had a death in the family and have to insta leave" or something like that and dipped. Only time I can even think of something close to that is when Chino was almost put in jail for the November 9... lol.
I'm not saying this wasn't collusion, but assuming it was, can someone here name the player who was colluded against? If we can't (obv can't) then the argument is they colluded against whom? The WSOP? What did they gain from the WSOP that playing normally would have not gotten them? It would seem they made a HU deal which had no affect on the overall payouts, based on what we know now.
Completely agree that keeping recs happy is maybe the most important thing about big tournys like this. And would agree that the rando "WSOP pays out to two people who cheated" headlines are bad for the game overall.
I really think this is a interesting spot overall. And it would be crazy if the WSOP decides to not pay out ~$2.2M that the players should have won. If that happens they have to sue right?
Appreciate the post.Maybe that is enough of a reason to do something here if you're the WSOP, as you think the value of a bracelet is a thing you want to keep high/rare/clean.Completely agree that if this was a stud8 FT with 155K for first and no PokerGo no one cares at all about this.I think the sit out angle is really interesting. IDK how the rules would apply if he just said
My guess it’s probably covered in TOS of no deals that was signed when registering for wsop+. Doesn’t need to have them collude against another player.
They can pay out 2.2M to rest of prizepool. Sure I would expect them to challenge it. And they might win given that it isn’t clear to normal civilians that it was collusion.
WSOP didn’t give a flying fk when Tamayo had a team running real-time solvers on the rail, why would they suddenly care about a heads-up deal?
So I think three main differences
1) wasn’t explicitly addressed in rules last year
2) humorous footage of blatant breaking of rules currently outlined in TOS
3) addition of third party that might challenge and keep it in news
And I think they cared last year, they just didn’t have a clear rule to point to but closed that up in rule changes
