GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

You're probably right. MJ was a little better. MJ volume of mid-range would have gone down as coaches know that it's by far the worst shot in basketball. Basically a losing play.

DeRozen is what Kobe would be today. Kobe was about 41% from midrange. DeRozen was better than that, but let's just say they were about the same.

Also, lol at MJ being the greatest jump shooter of all time.

So, Shaq wasn't good?

He was and he wasn't. fallguy can bend the truth like Neo bends spoons. He's that great of a Jordan Truther.

Similar to a big man like Giannis, MJ didn't need threes because he was so dominant on 2's.. However, unlike Giannis, Jordan was a guard like SGA that shot 38-43% on threes in every season or series of 3+ attempts..

Essentially, Jordan could shoot threes like SGA while having a volume capability/dominance on 2's that is unmatched in history... This dominance transcends eras because a primary feature of his dominance is making the toughest shots possible (mid-range).

It makes sense to assume that Jordan would have SGA's shot profile in today's game because we see that they shoot the same efficiency on shots all over the court.. The difference is that prime Jordan was a goat athlete and capable of an unprecedented tier of volume/dominance (at that same efficiency).

Only Jordan and Kobe made 700+ jumpers in a season.

Jordan did it with over 50% effective FG% in 97'.. Accordingly, it's the greatest jumpshooting season that we have on record based on volume and efficiency.. However, I guarantee that his 88-90' seasons were also record jumpshooting seasons, since he shot 54% at 33-35 ppg (as a shooting guard).

And here's a guy that never practiced threes, yet he never shot poorly in a season or series of 3+ attempts (regular line)..

In addition to the stats, we know that Jordan has the greatest turnaround jumper ever, and the greatest pull-up ever - he literally led the league in scoring from 96-98' on mainly turnaround jumpers - that's goat mastery.... Jordan also made more KINDS of jumpers than anyone, such as power jumpers, hangtime jumpers, and running jumpers that no one in history made.. Again, it's the greatest combination of athleticism and touch/shooting that the game has seen.. Among goat athletes like MJ, Shaq, Lebron, Giannis, Dr. J, etc - Jordan is the only goat shooter

He simply had the goat natural talent for the game because in addition to shooting, Jordan was considered the best PG in the NBA after just a few games at the position in 89' - he was 26 years old and a first-time PG, but was already considered the best after just 3 games at the position.. That's goat natural talent

So you're saying:

Lottery record against Finals teams + zero teammate development + woat chemistry + 1st Round loser with Luka & AD = the real deal

Meanwhile, 60-win run rate vs Finals teams + goat teammate development and chemistry + 2 three-peats while having goat rate stats (domination) = fugazi and "truthing"

Got it..

(Oh, and still a good defender at 40, while never being a flopper, colluder, load manager or whiner)

Jordan Truther says what?

"Truthing" would be saying that it's good to lose, aka 4 for 10 is actually the best ever.

Only 1 guy colluded, flopped, deck-stacked, perennially-lost and ushered in an era of non-competitive players that ruined ratings and the game...

And Lebron also ruined American talent - American basketball is in the sh*tter because Silver changed the rules to benefit downhill skillsets like Lebron's (bad chemistry skillsets that lose internationally).

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LEBRON MYTHS

Myth: Winning with 3 different teams deserves special respect

Reality: Only Lebron teamed up with numerous opposing franchise players in their prime, primarily because he was the 1st guy to do it and had a 6-year headstart before KD followed in 2017.. Meanwhile, guys like Bosh, Love, AD, and Kyrie sacrificed their prime for Bron-ball and therefore didn't have ideal opportunities to play with other stars.. Ultimately, Lebron's many pitstops provide a clear demonstration that he's a "one-off guy" - i.e. when he's given superstar help, he doesn't produce dynasties like Curry, MJ, Duncan or Shaq - he barely gets 1 title amongst a sea of bad losses, and then he'll leave the team at it's trough/low point, (in shambles).

Myth: He met every expectation

Reality: When Lebron entered the league, no one expected him to give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter.. If you told someone after the 2006 Finals that Lebron would team up with FMVP Wade, you would've been taken to the loony bin.. Yet that's what he did - he lost badly and then teamed up with opponents, which is the definition of failing expectation.. Overall, Lebron has 5 losses as the favorite, and 2 lotteries with a top 4 preseason favorite (19', 22')...

Lebron's teams were preseason favorite from 2011 to 2016, but fell to underdog or loser all 6 years, except the Allen miracle.. Since Lebron's teams start as the preseason favorite (favored talent), we can conclude that weak chemistry causes the bad regular seasons and fall to underdog.. Finally, Lebron is 17-36 in the playoffs against the Nuggets, Spurs and Warriors, while also losing as the favorite to 1-star teams like the Mavs, Magic and TWolves... So he perennially lost with every team and had many bad losses with every cast of his career - he simply produces weak teams - the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate and the most "bad" losses of any top 15 candidate (swept or gentlemen swept with a star teammate).

Myth: He has the stats

Reality: Lebron isn't top 10 all-time in RPG, APG, BPG, or SPG, and he isn't considered to have top 10 scoring ability, so he doesn't have top 10 ability in any of the 5 major categories. Secondly, Lebron only beats Jordan in DREB, APG and FG%, otherwise Jordan beats Lebron in PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, FT%, TO's, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, usage (possessions used), ortg (efficiency on those possessions), plus/minus, raptor, much more.

Myth: He "got rings for Kyrie, Wade, and AD"

Reality: FMVP Wade taught Lebron how to win, and lebron COST wade a title and fmvp in 2011.. Meanwhile, in order to "get Kyrie a ring", Kyrie had to provide more help than any sidekick ever has, aka outplay the league MVP and hit a top 3 all-time shot in the Finals... Finally, AD was leading scorer and defensive anchor for the Lakers title run - Lebron was the 2nd scorer and carried on defense.

Myth; He beat a 73-win team

Reality: The Warriors were a 1-man team just like the 09' Cavs:

09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY....... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER

Lebron carried Mo to 66 wins, and then Curry carried a lower producer to 73 wins - heck, in addition to guys like Mo, a guy like Jeff Hornacek blows Klay away across the board.. Unfortunately, the term "73-win team" implies "stacked", so Curry doesn't get credit for the carry-job.. Ultimately, KD joined a 1-man team.

Myth: He's a better floor-raiser than Curry, Kobe, or Duncan

Reality: Lebron couldn't win the conference with homecourt in 09' and 10', so he took the top 3 players in the conference and put them on 1 team - it's amazing that he gets props for winning the conference after that.. Furthermore, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' Eastern Playoffs, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight). Finally, in addition to being lottery in 2019 with a stacked young cast, Lebron was lottery with the East all-star center in 05' and added a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make the 06' Playoffs.. By Year 5 (2008), Lebron had "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins until he got the all-star spacing that his driving game needed in 09'.. Then they added Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite but lost in the 2nd Round as a -500 favorite.

Myth: Lebron has high IQ

Reality: He produces weaker teams, and the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate.. Specifically, even though Lebron had a record of 7 preseason favorites and often had the only "big 3" in the league, guys like Duncan, Curry, and Jokic still produced much better teams and are 32-17 overall against him in the playoffs.. These good teams sweep Lebron or win by record amount, while bad teams upset him like the 1-star Mavs, Magic or Twolves.. He's simply a perennial loser that has many bad losses with every cast in his career, aka he produces weaker teams regardless of cast, and is therefore inferior to Curry, Kobe, MJ, Duncan and more.

Secondly, primary ballhandlers score mostly unassisted by teammates... As a high-scoring primary ballhandler, Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles, thus reducing their assists and creating low assist teams - these low assist teams are the statistical trend for ANY high-scoring primary ballhandler, aka ball-dominator (Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Trae, etc)... By imposing spot-up roles, ball-dominators like Lebron actually PREVENT young player development, sophisticated offense and the chemistry needed to develop an organic winner.. Zero young players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch for his first 20 seasons.

Myth: Lebron plays 5 positions

Reality: Lebron has been the primary ballhandler for every team that he ever had until Luka arrived in his 22nd season.. It doesn't matter that the announcer has occasionally introduced Lebron as the starting center or PF because Lebron was always the team's primary ballhandler.. Proof of Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination are his many bad fits with other ballhandlers, such as Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, IT, or the 1st Round upset loss with Luka, and an obviously suboptimal fit with Wade.. True PF's like AD, Malone, KG or whoever would fit LIKE A GLOVE with these ballhandlers, yet Lebron had horrible fits because he's a ballhandler as well that doesn't fit with other spotty-shooting ballhandlers like himself.. The only guys that fit with Lebron are elite shooters like Mo, Kyrie or spot-up guys like Korver, etc.. Further proof of Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination is his long-standing statistical trend of increasing teammates' assisted buckets/spot-up role, thus reducing their assists and creating low assist teams - this is the statistical trend for ANY high-scoring primary ballhandler, aka ball-dominator (Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Trae, etc)

Many misperceptions itt

Thread Cliffs

When Lebron was given superstar help, he didn't produce dynasties like Curry, MJ, Duncan, Shaq or Kareem - he barely got 1 title amongst a sea of bad losses, and then he left the team at it's low point (in shambles).. He barely wins 50 games with the preseason favorite and falls to perennial underdog, so he doesn't produce teams that dominate the regular season and playoffs like his peers did.

And we know why he produces weaker teams - it's because he produces bad chemistry - i.e. his ball-dominant skillset increases his teammates' assisted buckets/spot-up role, thereby cratering their assists and creating low assist teams.. The imposition of spot-up roles is why Lebron had zero young player development for 2 decades and the most bad fits ever.

Accordingly, he isn't top 15 due to producing the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate and having more bad losses than any top 15 candidate.. He simply does the least with the most.. He's also known for many negative things/bad labels like flopper, colluder, load manager and whiner

Thread cliffs.

Some guy hates Lebron James and has dedicated his life to creating an argument that diminishes his place in basketball history. If you're bored it's mildly entertaining for awhile.

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I never heard Russell say that he tried to hurt Wilt, or Hakeem say he tried to hurt Shaq.. Accordingly, the only player in history where defenders said the objective was to hurt him was MJ - here's Salley and Rodman saying the objective was "to hurt Jordan":

I've never seen defenders GO AFTER lebron physically like this in the air (as opposed to him running into them on the ground) - he would cower in the face of defenders going after him in the air - this is necessary against an alien:

I don't hate Lebron.. I respect his political strength and conviction, and I also think he's generally a likeable and even funny dude.

It's really the media and everyone around him that caused the fake debate and made money off him. So I really hate everyone else.. not Lebron.. His inadequate game is just a microcosm of everyone else.. The more I destroy the obvious holes in his game, the more I expose everyone else that promoted him. So it's really about trashing the defrauders (media) and the defrauded (fans).. Lebron is just the vessel by which I expose everyone else.

Everyone else told him he's the best since he was 10.. It's given Lebron such lack of self-awareness and prevented him from getting the right kind of coaching/fundamentals early on that would translate to more sophisticated 5-man basketball later in his career.. Since the inherent holes in his development prevents great chemistry, he's forced to be a talent-based winner/team-hopper (all-star team strategy).. He never actually develope the best brand of ball or teammates, and simply had everything given to him (ready-made stars)... In 2026, getting everything handed to you is respected

I love how we get to just pick and choose who developed which teammate and who didn't.

Pippen, Grant and BJ grew from single-digit rookies to meaningful producers on MJ's watch.. When did Lebron develop low producers to meaningful producers during the first 20 years of his career?

Jordan's trend was to grow the ppg and apg of young players, while any meaningful producer that Lebron ever had was already good before joining him, and was reduced alongside him (ppg and apg).. So he didn't grow any young players, and reduced the ones that were good..

The only exceptions to Lebron reducing good teammates are Mo and Kyrie, since they're the rare fit and elite shooters that Lebron's stiff-arm needs.

Unlike Lebron, who can't fit with spotty-shooting ballhandlers like himself (Westbrook, Hughes, Wade, Ingram), Jordan fit with spotty-shooting ballhandlers like Pippen because he puts the ball in Pippen's hands and plays off-ball as the "bailout" guy.. Jordan set screens and ran off screens because he was an elite-shooting off-guard that could effectively share the ball-handling duties, similar to how Arenas fit so well with Hughes.

Update

LeBron 23/7/6 22.1 PER, 0.142 WS/48, 4.5 BPM

You can't even see MJ anymore LeBron has moved so far past him.

It's good you don't hate your daddy FG.

Austin Reaves developed entirely playing with LeBron. I know you have some nonsense to work around that cold hard fact, just spare us this time.

Okay that's not bad

But since I don't hate, it means I'm right about all this ****.

The other stats you posted about how the player's presence affects the offense and defense were more relevant, but they disappeared (never to reappear) once you realized how bad they made Lebron look compared to Jordan...

But let's recap - 40-year old Jordan made his team's offense better when he was on the floor without reducing the defense, while 40-year Lebron's presence craters both sides of the ball for the Lakers..

Accordingly, we can conclude that 40-year MJ was superior because he was still a good defender at 37 MPG (major minutes), while also being a better scorer, clutch player and fit

Let's not forget what we're talking about.

We're talking about how the leading scorer affects their teammates, and AD was the leading scorer for the title year and co-leader for the other 5 years.. He was the highly-assisted player and big assist target that young ballhandlers need to grow.. Otoh, Reaves cratered alongside Lebron - he averages 19.1 alongside Lebron and 28.4 without him.

Accordingly, AD gets credit for developing Reaves, since Lebron was only a co-scoring leader and Reaves cratered alongside him.. But it's irrelevant because all of my posts said that Lebron didn't develop anyone "for the first 20 years of his career" or "for 2 decades"... This purposefully excluded Reaves because I preferred not to go down the "b-b-but Reaves developed alongside Lebron!!" rabbit hole... Alas, too late, smh

In addition to Pippen/Grant/BJ growing on MJ's watch, starters like BJ and Longley immediately fell to bench players on expansion teams after starting on the Bulls' title teams.. Let that sink in.... Meanwhile, Kerr was waived by the Magic before joining the Bulls.. Paxson, Woolridge, Oakley and Vincent achieved career highs immediately upon joining Jordan..

Otoh, Lebron never grew any young players and he cratered many good/established players

I sense weakness on the Curry vs Lebron debate - I think Lebron fans know they lose that debate because the primary weapon they use to put Lebron over Kobe (efficiency) doesn't work against Curry.. Meanwhile, Curry's skillset produces the goat ball movement and goat teams - this is achieved with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and Curry defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).. This is superior to Lebron winning with equal-scoring partners and "super-teams" of 3 franchise players.. Ultimately, Curry skillset allows great chemistry and teammate development like Klay, Dray, Poole and Wiggins, so he wins with less than Lebron's bad chemistry is capable of winning with

Ultimately, I think it's clear that MJ, Curry, Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Bird, Wilt and Duncan are FOR SURE better than Lebron (due to producing better teams and superior dominance/scoring/defense), while Kobe and Jokic have strong cases, i.e. having the top skillset/off-ball capability that produces great chemistry & wins with less, such as a 2nd option (Pau) that's worse than Lebron's 3rd option (Love, Bosh, Jamison)..

Btw, Magic's Lakers were #1 in assists every year because Magic didn't have a high volume of unassisted buckets like high-scoring primary ball-handlers do (ball-dominators).. So he's better than Lebron too and has more rings while also having a phenomenal ring frequency and #1 in career APG (lebron isn't top 10 in APG, RPG, BPG and SPG, while no one considers LeStiffArm to have top 10 scoring ability either, so his ability isn't top 10 in any of the 5 major categories).

If anybody ever grew anybody then Lebron grew Austin Reeves. Otherwise no player ever grew any other player. Other than Lebron and Dell growing their sons I guess.