GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

You mean when he retired instead of facing prime Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, or upcoming LeBron?

If you can only get 30 8 and 8 one time after 34 yrs 2 months of age, you're long finished being a star. They may hand you some awards like that Rams qb instead of Maye...lifetime achievement they call it. he just wasn't puttin up the numbers.

And if Jordan only played 20 more games before age 25 than 25 year old, 25 PER zion today who is being called a bust...well...you cant really say that part of his career was really impressive.

So, that leaves the years in between when he was great but did he really do anything other than square up to the basketball at the elbow extended and get in the triple threat, jab step and drive or shoot over the guy or back his dude down for a turnaround? That was all rules for illegal d making double teams so confusing and hard.

And he took a year and a half off then too.

He was unstoppable in the open court but that is a lot of guys today.

1998 was Shaq's 6th season and most stacked roster ever (4 all-stars + Horry, Fox, DFish).

Yet he was swept by Utah for the 2nd year in a row - aka NO MATCH for the Jazz.

Ultimately, Jordan destroyed Magic and swept Isiah.. Otoh, Lebron never really destroyed any top 20 all-time guys because Duncan, Curry, or Jokic all blew Lebron away multiple times each, while he needed teammate bailout to beat them in a one-off - So he never blew away any top all-time guys and instead got destroyed multiple times except teammate bailout.

Once he's sufficiently infected the team with his Lebron-ball approach, he sits out the toughest game so that his re-adjusting team has no chance.

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Lebron's assisted rate (off-ball rate) alongside Luka still barely scrapes 50% (low for forwards) and it consists of standing idly on the wing and then going "downhill upon the catch", as the TWolves coach explains below:

^^^^ this brand of "off-ball" is a massive loser (aka BAD off-ball player):

LAST 12 GAMES:

Truthfully, Lebron doesn't run off screens and is a horrible jumpshooter in the type of spots that systems or elite ball movement requires.

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Seeing that today's offenses allows players to camp at the 3-point line and wait for high-screen PNR kickouts, Jordan would exert less energy chasing guys than the superior ball movement he defended in previous eras:

Luka & Reaves destroyed the Bucks in November 119-95, and now Lebron-ball barely musters 100 points and loses.

lebron has simply DESTROYED this team

he's a massive negative so the Lakers massively lose with him on the floor.. His stats destroy chemistry and he's HORRIFIC in clutch-time... 1 for 30 on the last possession as a Laker.

He's simply the WORST EVER at chemistry and among the worst ever at clutch - the dumbest player in history that never evolved out of his ball-dominant AAU skillset

Imagine a dumb player that turns everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby lowering their assists and creating a low assist team - imagine completely PREVENTING the best brand of ball (elite ball movement and high assist teams), thereby needing the most help in the league.. Lebron is a joke and not a top 15 all-time player, due to producing the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate while needing the most help.. It's for being a perennial loser regardless of cast, due to employing the worst brand of ball ever (high-scoring primary ballhandling, aka ball-domination)

Bronny James actually started that game, so they blew the Bucks away with basically you or me starting (a weak D1 player)...

That should take care of any excuses you want to make

Oh, and the Lakers were on the road in November, but at home last night

Carry on

Yeah, it makes sense to blame LeBron out of all these players...

All those guys were killing when it was just Luka/Reaves leading the way, so Lebron simply kills chemistry and has a long history of bad fits

Look what lebron does to Luka and Ayton - they play about 70% capacity alongside Lebron

Did you not read my post, I literally said it makes sense to blame LeBron.

Well clearly, since the Lakers destroyed the Bucks in Milwaukee with Bronny in Lebron's place - so literally anyone is better than Lebron's toxic chemistry, solved game, and worst-ever clutch - he turns positive players into negative, while 30-35 ppg guys like Reaves/Luka become 20-25 guys.. Zero young players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch for his first 20 seasons because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter - this stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. He simply has the worst teammate development ever, along with the worst-ever chemistry and clutch.. That's why he produces weaker teams that have a lottery record against Finals teams..

Since he produces weaker teams and the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate, he isn't top 15.. This is buttressed by him never learning the best brand of ball so he can't ever play like the Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls, aka elite ball movement, aka dynasty-ball (can't have great teams)

Yep winning 2 chips in 4 years with 2 other finals appearances (out of only 4 years together) isn't a great team.

If his teammates play well, they carried him.

If they play bad. It's his fault because he ruined them.

Nice to have it both ways.

That team was beaten by record amount - they were beaten worse than anyone ever has and thoroughly embarrassed in a way that we've never seen before.

So no, they weren't a great team.. They got lucky when they won and demolished when they lost.. They lost by record blowout and also record surprise/choke.. That simply isn't a great team that compares to the soaring dynasties of his peers.

Specifically, Lebron's Heat barely won 50 games most years, which caused perennial Finals underdog status - this doesn't compare to great teams that dominated the regular season and playoffs.. The peak Heat were underdogs to baby Westbrick.. Again - not a great team and obviously not a dynasty.

And here's the thing - they were EXPECTED to be a great team because they put 3 of the top 4 players in the conference on 1 team.. So the Finals appearances weren't respected and the team was expected to win 8 titles.. As usual, Lebron drastically underachieved expectation.. Ultimately, Lebron's best teams have a lottery record against Finals teams - that proves that he produces low team ceilings - Finals record is a direct reflection of the team ceilings a player produces.

Lebron's teammates don't just "play well".. They completely dominate at unprecedented levels for him to win.

Imagine Pippen going to the 93' Finals and DOMINATING mvp barkley... Ultimately, there's never been a sidekick outplay the league MVP except when Kyrie destroyed Curry (and hit a top 3 all-time shot to close the series).

Dominating the league MVP is the most help possible and it's EXTRAORDINARY, so using the term "playing well" is a massive understatement.... It's actually "carrying" Lebron compared to the help that Klay, Pippen, Pau or other sidekicks provide.

And of course AD literally led Lebron in scoring while carrying the defense - you can't get much more carried than that.. And Wade carried Lebron in the 11' Finals and showed him how to perform under pressure when the lights are brightest (Finals).

So everything stands.. Ultimately, Lebron's teammates must dominate for him to win because Lebron can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams)... Specifically, Lebron never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention), and he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).

Ultimately, it's a numbers game with Lebron, aka trying many different rosters because his skillset has a proclivity for bad fits.. Accordingly, he needs many roster changes to find someone that can carry him and provide the unprecedented help that he needs

Oh so great players have excelled alongside LeBron due to his compatibility? Got it.

So Pippen always sucked in the playoffs because Jordan was so hard to play with? Got it.

Those are great points you made.

Also, give credit to Lebron for keeping AD in the lineup for a full playoff run. I'm waiting to see anyone else win with AD. Or Kyrie. Those great players are even on the same team now, surely the Mavs are starting their 3 pear dynasty this year with Klay Thompson and Cooper Flagg.

Can you not read? I literally wrote "isn't a great team". jfc

Lebron mostly cratered teammates, which is why he has the worst title frequency and generally produced much weaker teams than his peers.

In addition to cratering teammates and therefore producing weak teams, the few times he won required historic domination from teammates, aka LeCarried

No, Pippen just sucked period... He wasn't a dominant player that could "takeover" like Kyrie, Wade, AD, or Luka.

Ultimately, Jordan is the only guy in history that won multiple titles with that caliber of production from a sidekick.

Jordan got the most out of Pippen, while Hakeem got nothing and Houston was AMAZED at how bad he was.. It's well-documented how shocked Houston was regarding Pippen's low caliber - they quickly realized he was just a dunker/athlete-type that couldn't score or shoot.

I'm waiting to see one of the preseason favorites miss the play-in like Lebron did with AD, Westbrook and a stacked roster in 2022.

History shows that Lebron never dominated a top 10 candidate in a H2H matchup, but his teammates did.. i.e. AD dominated Jokic and Kyrie dominated Curry - this is unprecedented carrying by teammates.

Ultimately, Lebron never carried teams to titles like MJ because he had teammates like AD, Kyrie and Wade to dominate and be the focus, while MJ didn't and was always the sole focus.

Btw, it's a dumb argument to say that "Lebron's teammates didn't win with anyone else" because Wade did - so that kills the argument.. Furthermore, Lebron is the only guy getting many opportunities to play with other stars, while his teammates only got to play with him for the most part.. They didn't get to play with Wade, Luka, AD and Love like Lebron did.. Btw, in addition to Wade's FMVP, Kyrie made the Finals without Lebron, which Pippen never did.. So the argument loses on every level

"Dynasties" can't mostly lose for every period of time - there must be a stretch where they mostly win.. In determining the proper length of the stretch, we know that 2 chips in 3 years is too common and can be distorted by a lucky chip, while 2 in 4 doesn't allow a team to mostly win.. Accordingly, a logical definition of a dynasty is 3 chips in 5 years.. Curry, Kobe, Duncan, and Jordan achieved this, while Lebron couldn't and was barely 2 for 4 - the shakiest 2 for 4 in history...

In addition to producing dynasties, Duncan/Kobe/Curry/MJ also had dominant title runs (1 loss average per round - 4 losses max), while Lebron barely won Finals - he also turned perennial preseason favorites into perennial Finals underdogs by barely winning 50 games in the regular season... Again, Lebron simply produces weaker teams.

He produces weaker teams because he produces low assist teams that contrast with the dynasties and best teams - he produces low assist teams because his ball-dominant skillset increases everyone's assisted buckets/spot-up role, which craters their assists and creates low assist teams over time.. Accordingly, Lebron's skillset is inherently suboptimal (lowers everyone's assists to create low assist teams).

If AD or Kyrie or Luka ever win a title without Lebron, and as their teams best player, let us know.

Richard Hamilton was the leading scorer on a championship team. Jordan couldn't win with him. And George Gervin was a 4 time scoring champ, Jordan couldn't win with him.

They all sacrificed their prime for Bron-ball, and everyone knows this (including you), so your point is disingenuous and incorrect.. Again, only Lebron got a bunch of chances with different stars in their prime.

Secondly, let me know when Lebron makes the playoffs out West without AD (or Luka).. AD lifted the Lakers out of lottery status, not Lebron.. Accordingly, AD already won as the best player by leading the ppg and carrying the defense in 2020 - aka Hakeem Olajuwon-type s***.. Lebron was carried on defense and the 2nd-leading scorer on offense - this is trash ring quality compared to Jordan.

Peak Richard Hamilton was never anywhere near a top 5 player like Luka, Wade and AD, and Jordan played with baby Rip, not the peak Rip that you reference.

Lebron also couldn't win with 4 guys (Jamison, Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes) that were equal or better than young Rip or 1990 Pippen

Antawn Jamison never made it past the 2nd round in his whole career.

Larry Hughes never went past the 2nd round without Lebron. Same for Mo and Zilgauskas.

Wade is the only player who ever accomplished anything without LeBron. Chris Bosh never made it past the first round.