GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
If anybody ever grew anybody then Lebron grew Austin Reeves. Otherwise no player ever grew any other player. Other than Lebron and Dell growing their sons I guess.
In games without Lebron, Reaves was averaging 28.4 last year and could've made All-NBA, or definitely all-star.. It's a travesty that Reaves hasn't been an all-star yet after 5 seasons, and the stats show that it's Lebron's fault - it's Lebron's presence that craters Reaves' scoring and assists, thus holding him down.. The stats are clear on this.
And again, we're talking about how the scorer leader affects teammates, and since the Lakers had 2 scoring leaders, we have to look at Reaves performance alongside each guy - it's clear that reaves THRIVES alongside davis or luka and CRATERS alongside lebron.
Finally, even if you want to include Reaves, it's still not enough to disprove the LeCancer theory because Reaves is merely the exception that proves the rule... One example is essentially luck, and the luck was having AD (the big assist target that young ballhandlers need to grow).. If Lebron is Mr. IQ or Mr. Longevity, he should have many examples of growing young players, but he had none for 20 seasons (because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter and reduces their assists, thus producing low assist teams).
Ultimately, why do you pretend Lebron grows young players and ignore the obvious statistical reality of him turning teammates into spot-up shooter, thus reducing their PPG and cratering their APG?.. He literally increases their assisted buckets/spot-up role, which craters their assists.. Given this statistical reality of him imposing spot-up roles (and the long list of bad fits), how can you pretend he grows young players?
It's a tragedy that Scottie Pippen wasn't a top 3 MVP candidate every year. He had one year in his prime without Jordan and that's what he did. So Jordan ruined him then.
.
.
PIPPEN CHOKING WITH DUMB FOUL ON HUBERT DAVIS
Clutch Points for 2016 2nd Round (last 5 within 5):
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch...
Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:
The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF led by Wade
Playoffs
16' WADE'...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%
It's a tragedy that Scottie Pippen wasn't a top 3 MVP candidate every year. He had one year in his prime without Jordan and that's what he did. So Jordan ruined him then.
Last season, SGA got MVP by surprisingly carrying the Thunder while his team suffered significant injuries to key players.
In addition to SGA, guys like Derrick Rose, Nash and others got MVP based primarily on "surprise factor" - it's the #1 factor in voting.
Now let's look at the 94' Bulls, who were perceived as "OMG they won 55 without Mike"... Given such perfect conditions and surprise factor, a real dude like Barkley, Robinson, Shaq, etc would've easily won MVP in Pippen's shoes.. The fact that Pippen wasn't 1st or 2nd is telling.. NO ONE viewed him as a 'franchise player' that gets tasked with building a team from scratch.. Everyone knew that was he was handed a fully-developed organization and dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months.. He was also exposed more than anyone ever has been in the 2nd Round with 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarters and several goat chokes (previous post).
If you spend enough years of your life looking for ways to rationalize anything and everything, you can do it. Congratulations.
The other stats you posted about how the player's presence affects the offense and defense were more relevant, but they disappeared (never to reappear) once you realized how bad they made Lebron look compared to Jordan... But let's recap - 40-year old Jordan made his team's offense better when he was on the floor without reducing the defense, while 40-year Lebron's presence cra
What are you talking about? When I posted before the Lakers were much worse when LeBron was on the court than off as LeBron was working his way back from injury.
Now they are basically the same (-0.2 points per 100).
Stop trying to compare MJ to LeBron after 40. We've shown the stats for LeBron vs Jordan in the first 6 months after turning 40. It's laughable.
What are your thoughts of the Warriors being 1.9 points per 100 better with Steph Curry on the bench. Is he "destroying the team"?
What are you talking about? When I posted before the Lakers were much worse when LeBron was on the court than off as LeBron was working his way back from injury.
Now they are basically the same (-0.2 points per 100).
Stop trying to compare MJ to LeBron after 40. We've shown the stats for LeBron vs Jordan in the first 6 months after turning 40. It's laughable.
Lebron has destroyed this Laker team and his teammates, so who cares about his cancerous stats.. He's destroyed Reaves' career, and reduced Luka too... The team doesn't even have shootaround anymore!!.. Meanwhile, MJ played 82 games at 40, while still having practices and shootarounds.
Luka/Kyrie and Luka/Reaves were good, while Luka/Lebron are bad... He's can't move off screens and he's the worst off-ball player ever.. Any team with Luka and other stars should compete for the TITLE, but LeUnderachiever will barely make the play-in.. Let that sink in.. Lebron sucks.
So don't compare 40-year Lebron to Jordan - Jordan was easily better... He was a better defender, scorer, competitor, fit, IQ and much more.. This Laker team would be good defensively and contending for a title with Luka/Reaves/Jordan/Ayton.. So Lebron just sucks and can't get the most out of teammates.. He's a beta, coddled, weak mentality and choker that permeates the team.. Lebron is Mr. Turnover and Mr. Butterfingers in the clutch that was recently embarrassed against the Bucks.. lol.. So keep dreaming
What are your thoughts of the Warriors being 1.9 points per 100 better with Steph Curry on the bench. Is he "destroying the team"?
Curry, Lebron and KD are old and NEGATIVE players that are just living off the easy format, which allows good raw numbers to fool fans.
But in previous eras, these losers would've been retired already.. Again, it's only the easy scoring format that allows these bums to still produce raw ppg or apg and fool fans
If you spend enough years of your life looking for ways to rationalize anything and everything, you can do it. Congratulations.
That's false - not everything can be rationalized, and I'm not rationalizing anything in this case... I'm telling you how it was in the 90's... i.e. NO ONE viewed pippen as a franchise player.. This is a historical fact.
He was viewed no different than any secondary producer, such as Klay for example.
Infact, the phrase "he's a pippen" was created to describe a player that wasn't a 1st option type player or "the guy ", such as Shawn Marion for example.
This was Pippen's caliber, and he was simply handed a fully-developed dynasty in 94' - MJ already did the heavy lifting to build weak rookies and the organization into a dynasty.
Again it's the historical record that Pippen never played above a prime Iguodala level, so the winning spotlight simply inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Accordingly, there's no "rationalization" needed - Pippen was a secondary producer that stunk it up regularly and was carried in every series - see previous posts for details.
If you spend enough years of your life looking for ways to rationalize anything and everything, you can do it. Congratulations.
You guys make a big deal about 55 wins, but you wouldn't care if it was a Barkley-led team, or Robinson-led team, or Shaq... The only reason it's a big deal is because sorry-ass Pippen did it, and he isn't perceived to be on the top level with the Barkley's, Robinson's, and Curry's of the world.. Again, a big part of this fake goat debate is the lionization of Pippen, who was ANYTHING BUT a lion.. He's more like a hyena, aka picking up other people's scraps to survive (and carried).
Again, it's false to say that I'm "rationalizing" a player that averaged 3.0 on 20% in 4th quarters and was clearly outclassed by Ewing - there's no "rationalizing" that - Pippen simply stunk and frequently did... Do you realize that no one has more historic and noteworthy chokes than Pippen?... He cost Jordan the 1990 title with "the migraine", and people don't realize that he missed the closeout game in 1989 too, so it was his 2nd "migraine"!!.. Then he had the "sit-out" game in the 94' Playoffs (goat choke) and lost a 17 point lead 4th quarter lead to lose Game 7 and miss the 2000 Finals..
No one has this many historic chokes, and Pippen has many other smaller chokes to lose individual playoff games like turning the ball over on the last possession or bricking final FT's.. From a statistical standpoint, there's never been a more carried player or a superstar with lower peak capability, aka just a dunker and system player that doesn't require defensive attention.
It's a tragedy that Scottie Pippen wasn't a top 3 MVP candidate every year. He had one year in his prime without Jordan and that's what he did. So Jordan ruined him then.
MVP voting or All NBA are the opinion of a few journalists and therefore always a poor argument.. The media is influenced by the winning spotlight, which is why 2nd options never make All-NBA on losing teams - career 2nd options like Pippen or Klay need winning spotlight to make All-NBA... 2nd options are guaranteed All-NBA if they get carried to multiple chips or historic winning like Pippen, Klay and others..
In addition to the winning spotlight, Pippen benefitted because the media voted for MJ/Pippen like a joint ticket - Pippen didn't really belong, which is why everyone in the top 10 for MVP voting was a dominant player except Pippen - he stood out as the only non-dominant player.
But even if we go with your argument, it fails on its own merits because Pippen was nearly 3rd for MVP alongside Jordan, aka he was 5th and therefore playing near capacity... Otoh, Lebron's teammates crater alongside him and play far below capacity.
Furthermore, the 95' Bulls were 34-31 before Jordan returned, so Pippen wasn't capable of 3rd place without the surprise factor that he enjoyed in 94'... Similar to other fluke 3rd-place finishers like Blake Griffin or Draymond, Pippen's high finish was a function of unique factors and not duplicable in other years.. Pippen was massively exposed once opponents woke up in the 94' Playoffs and following season..
Ultimately, your pippen flailing failed to refute the points that 1) Jordan grew many teammates while Lebron grew no one and 2) teammates played near their career highs/capacity alongside Jordan, while many teammates cratered alongside Lebron.. Accordingly, the LeCancer theory is alive and well
The only argument that people make for Pippen is that a few journalism majors gave him votes for media awards after he was carried to titles and basking in unprecedented winning spotlight... But his worst-ever efficiency clogged the lanes for MJ, while his low peak scoring capability forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load).
It's statistical fact that Pippen was carried in every series and is the most carried player of all-time.. i.e. everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, except Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (carried scoring load)... Furthermore, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.
Accordingly, despite the winning spotlight-inspired media accolade, no argument can be made based on Pippen's actual performance, aka "look at this series where he dominated", or "look at when he was the primary defender on so-and-so and locked him down", or "look at this big shot that he hit".
The reality is that Pippen never locked up anyone notable as the primary defender, while also never dominating offensively in any series or reaching 15 ppg outside the system - he also never reached 45.2% outside the system and shot 48.3% from 88-98' compared to 43.6% from 99-03'.
i love the endless deleted posts, probably because fallguy realizes his post makes no sense.. then deletes it lolol
.
.
Teammates played 25-40% below their career highs/capacity alongside Lebron:
2014 Love career high.............. 26 ppg
2015 Love with Lebron............. 16 ppg
2005 Hughes career high......... 22 ppg
2006 Hughes with Lebron........ 14 ppg
2010 Bosh career high............. 24 ppg
2011 Bosh with Lebron............ 18 ppg
2020 Ingram career high......... 24 ppg
2019 Ingram with Lebron........ 18 ppg
2010 Jamison career high........ 22 ppg
2010 Jamison with Lebron....... 16 ppg
Teammates played 5-20% below their career highs/capacity alongside Lebron:
1994 Pippen career high.......... 22 ppg (5.6 apg)
1992 Pippen with Jordan.......... 21 ppg (7.0 apg)
1995 Grant career high............. 15 ppg
1992 Grant with Jordan............. 14 ppg
1994 BJ career high.................... 15 ppg
1993 BJ with Jordan.................... 12 ppg
1984 Woolridge career high..... 19 ppg
1985 Woolridge with Jordan..... 23 ppg
In addition to cratering his teammates' scoring, lebron craters his teammates' assists by turning them into spot-up shooter.
Furthermore, in addition to the list above, other craterings include Luka, Westbrook, IT, Rose, and many more, while Paxson, Oakley and Sam Vincent achieved career highs alongside Jordan.. Virtually no one cratered like Lebron's long list of teammate craterings.
Teammates frequently crater alongside Lebron because his ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles.. This contrasts with an off-guard and high volume jumpshooter like Jordan, who allowed the best brand of ball that the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls played (the dynasties).
i love the endless deleted posts, probably because fallguy realizes his post makes no sense.. then deletes it lolol
The stats don't lie (previous post).
Lebron craters his teammates' scoring and assists, while also having zero young player development for 20 seasons.
The cratering of teammates and lack of young player development is because Lebron turns everyone into spot-up shooter.. He literally increases his teammates' assisted buckets/spot-up role, which craters their assists (and produces low assist teams)... Consequently, Lebron can't execute elite ball movement like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls, aka the best basketball (dynasties)..
Ultimately, his inferior chemistry and brand of ball is why he won less than peers like Curry and Duncan (and is inferior).
.
Recent Thread Cliffs
* The arguments against Pippen (his sub-par performance, aka never playing above a prime Iguodala level) are greater than the arguments for Pippen (a few journalism majors voted for him after he was carried to titles and basking in unprecedented winning spotlight)
* Bosh was 12th for MVP in 2010, while Love was 7th in 2014, so Lebron turned MVP candidates into criticized role players, while also reducing perennial MVP candidates like AD or Wade into nothingburgers and zero-vote getters basically every season.
* In addition to turning MVP candidates into criticized "bums", Lebron didn't develop any young players for the first 20 seasons of his career because he turns everyone into spot-up shooter - this worst-ever brand of ball produced the most bad fits ever and MUCH weaker teams than his peers like Duncan, Curry and others.. Ultimately, since Lebron's skillset/brand does the least with the most and produces the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate, he isn't a top 15 all-time player...
* Lebron's weak teams would include barely winning 50 games with the preseason favorite and therefore falling to perennial underdog, or having a lottery record against Finals teams, or losing as the favorite 5 times, or being lottery with one of the preseason favorites twice... This doesn't compare to the soaring dynasties of his peers that dominated the regular season and playoffs.. Curry, Duncan and Kobe allowed the elite ball movement that dynasties require, while Lebron's ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles produces weak records, underdogs, and the biggest beatdown losses in history.
i love the endless deleted posts, probably because fallguy realizes his post makes no sense.. then deletes it lolol
Well, you can read them...
I imagine they are the exact same post as the one that ends up getting posted with a couple of words changed. It does worry me that it takes over an hour to get a post right.
Curry, Lebron and KD are old and NEGATIVE players that are just living off the easy format, which allows good raw numbers to fool fans.
But in previous eras, these losers would've been retired already.. Again, it's only the easy scoring format that allows these bums to still produce raw ppg or apg and fool fans
So why aren't you talking down Durant and Curry then?
Both are several years younger.
Well, you can read them...I imagine they are the exact same post as the one that ends up getting posted with a couple of words changed. It does worry me that it takes over an hour to get a post right.
Oh I've checked the deleted posts and you are 100% correct. He changes a few words or adds a sentence over and over.
The dedication is legendary.
Maybe he should get a more productive hobby than posting, deleting, editing, deleting, over and over for one post on a dying forum.
Maybe he should get a more productive hobby than posting, deleting, editing, deleting, over and over for one post on a dying forum.
1 hour to get a post right (a post that clears up fraud and propaganda), while you guys spend hours actually watching this garbage and then post-game coverage and sportscenter.
Accordingly, my sports hobby takes up very little of my time compared to you guys... And those long posts a couple pages ago that cleared up all the myths???? Copy-paste lol!!.. They took 5 seconds
Ultimately, NBA coaches know that they won't be able to run a Popovich or Warriors system of elite ball movement if they coach Lebron, but they can if they coach Curry, Duncan, or Kobe.
Accordingly, assuming each guy is dominating with relatively similar levels of production rate/PER, etc, the superior brand of ball and team that Curry can produce makes him better than Lebron, and preferrable to coaches.. And the same goes for Kobe and Duncan - they're better than Lebron because they can produce superior chemistry/teams while dominating at comparable levels.. The superior chemistry also allows them to win with less, aka "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, while Lebron's inferior brand of ball requires "super-teams" of 3 franchise players..
Due to the weaker brand of ball and subsequent need for tons of help, Lebron is actually a nightmare for coaches/organizations.. It's questionable whether a stint with Lebron is a material net positive in the long run.. Just ask Jeanie, Riley or Gilbert - they all hated LeCancer.. Again, it's starts with his skillset of imposing spot-up roles, so he can't develop great chemistry and hinders roster construction.. The roster needs eventually become too great to support such a poor brand of ball, especially once the league solves the weak brand with his latest team.. Lebron's inability to develop great chemistry makes him a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy) and therefore a rampant team-hopper - this is a nightmare for organizations and coaches.
