The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

What are these simple basic aspects of poker? As I understand it, shark takes fish’s money until fish goes broke or finds another outlet for their gambling addiction. Maybe poker works differently for you than me.

And I said they couldn’t run a clean site without offering other forms of gambling like slots, which GG does.

Nope but people like Slugant think the incentive to cheat is way too low! Let’s just ignore 5 thousand years of human history.

If your poker skills are as abysmal as your reading comprehension I get why you are struggling at the game.

Poker sites dont offer gambling because otherwise they wouldnt make money, they offer gambling to make more money.
If your view is that companies who offer things to make themselves more money is immoral I have some very tough news to tell you :p

I never said in general the incentive to cheat is too low.
I said the risk-to-reward incentive to rig the rng to make winners win less and losers lose less (your "theory") isnt there and it would be close to impossible to keep such an operation a secret forever. Yet we havent seen anything close to it ever.

LMAO, thanks for confirming.

See kids, this is how a losing player imagines how poker works. How does "until fish goes broke" fit in with the fact that people like you (braindead losers) keep coming back again and again?!

Hilariously stupid claim.

You literally haven’t expressed a single coherent thought. I’ve won on every single online and live platform available in the US. There’s nothing you can say to me lmao.

Look, your critical thinking is very limited. First of all, why would they even need to pay anyone, and second, who exactly are they supposed to be worried about catching them? Here, I’m telling you, I have proof-I've seen a run of minus 15 million chips over 450k hands, and I am certain that in the mid-stage, the ICM RNG is not clean. And what changes for the site? So what if I have proof. Ha ha Even if a programmer says that algorithms are being used, nobody will pay attention

Projection.

So it's actually not rigged. Nice, you're the first rigturd to come back from the darkness. Congrats.

You think the programmer responsible for the biggest never discovered secret in online poker is doing it for free?
Or keeps his mouth shut for free?
Knowing that if he spills the beans millions and millions are at stake... And you accuse others of limited thinking, now thats ironic

If you have proof it can be shown, easy as that, otherwise it isnt proof. Who can show it? Anyone with access to a tracker, so basically anybody except lazy riggies who somehow cant figure out how to use one.
Statistical anomalies are provable. Making a whole group of winners win less and a whole group of losers lose less goes even beyond being an anomaly. If you are indeed certain mid-stage ICM RNG isnt clean you can prove it. But you are either too lazy or know very well you're talking ****. Or both of course. Its usually both.

You say a programmer has said algorithms are being used. Please supply the quote and link. Otherwise it just seems like the fabrication of an unhappy poker player with exactly 0.00% backing to his wild claims. Just like we've seen countless time before.

That's a stupid argument. Do you expect every driver to prove that their car is safe to drive? No. It's on the manufacturer to ensure their cars adhere to pre-defined safety standards. Same in the food industry and many others. Only fools want to put the burden of proof for poker sites on to individual players.

​No. Even if I just prove that there is a mathematical anomaly in the HM (Hold'em Manager) database, nobody is going to care. Absolutely nobody will help me. The only entity that can take action on behalf of a user is a government regulator. In a nutshell, poker is a casino, and the casino can determine exactly how much luck everyone gets with absolute impunity. They have absolutely no reason not to do it. The only control comes from some independent laboratory. And without full transparency, that lab will never test an individual profile that has run unbelievably bad over a huge sample.
​Man, the poker rooms can do whatever they want and they don't take any risk with their actions.

Your next step: Realise that these processes are basically the same for the food industry and poker (tests are performed and when they pass, a cert is issued), then stop whining about rigged deals just because you lost $400 lifetime due to extremely bad decisions at the tables. Are you screaming at the Costco employee, asking if the cheap meat you always buy has a valid "cert of freshness"? Why not?

And tomorrow on 'Fake and phony sounding reasons why online poker is obviously rigged but the rigging can't be proven, like....... ever'

The RNG certification does not prove that the game is fair, only that the RNG produces random numbers. In my analogy that's like proving the steering wheel works in the car. It says nothing about the overall safety of the car.

Now please post a certification that shows the deal is completely fair for any poker site. Before you start spewing, I've read the Pokerstars certificate and that ain't it.

Tell me you dont understand an RNG test/certification without telling me you do.

An RNG test is done over the outcome (millions and millions of hands) and if there are any patterns or cases of non-randomness it will fail the test. Its absolutely not just about producing random numbers like you suggest.

Passing the test means the dealing of hands is done fairly and random and there is no manipulation or interference.

A game could still be unfair to due people colluding, botting, ghosting, RTA etc. But not because the RNG favors certain players.

If you are however adamant about the dealt hands not being random I'd love to see your work.

Or you can read up on what an RNG certificate actually entails and what it checks. If you dont want to take my word for it, maybe AI will nudge you in the right direction;

An RNG (Random Number Generator) certificate on an online poker site proves that the software running the card shuffles has been rigorously tested by an independent, third-party laboratory and found to be mathematically fair, unbiased, and unpredictable

When an accredited testing lab—such as iTech Labs, Gaming Laboratories International (GLI), or eCOGRA—issues a certificate, it confirms four main technical criteria:

Statistical Randomness: The generator has passed millions of sample tests to ensure that numbers (and therefore cards) are distributed evenly. No specific cards, seats, or players are favored over time
Unpredictability: Knowing the previous hands or cards dealt gives absolutely zero statistical advantage in predicting the next card. The algorithm cannot be reverse-engineered by tracking patterns
Non-Repeatability: The system does not loop through a fixed, repeating sequence of decks
Correct Game Logic Integration: The testing labs check that the raw random numbers generated are translated accurately into a 52-card deck without any distortion or bugs during execution

- So to use your analogy, it clearly doesnt just prove the steering wheel works but indeed the overall safety of the entire dealing process.

Others form of cheating like mentioned above are happening everywhere but those dont fall under "being rigged" so not the topic of this thread.

Tell me how to find the setting in HM3 that shows how much luck I've had in the mid-stage and overall when ICM is active, and I will prove it to you. Because apparently, a 15-million-chip EV difference isn't proof enough for you

Your two explanations of what is tested for a RNG certificate are completely different. The first one is incorrect. The second one is correct.

The certification proves that a RNG produces random numbers, typically during the shuffle phase i.e. a deck is randomly shuffled. Go and read the Pokerstars certificate. It does not certify anything about the fairness of the game.

What I asked you for was to provide a certificate that shows the game is fair, including the dealing of the cards. I'll save you some time. There isn't one, so don't bother looking.

So if the sites can't be bothered to prove that their game is fair, why should anyone play there?

QFT

If you dont know how to find it, how do you "know" its a -15M chipEV difference? 🙂
Did you pluck this number out of thin air?
And if you didnt, you must have indeed found a way to see it all so you would have no problem of showing it either 😉

They are certainly not different.
My wording was: An RNG test is done over the outcome (millions and millions of hands) and if there are any patterns or cases of non-randomness it will fail the test. Its absolutely not just about producing random numbers like you suggest.
AI wording was: Statistical Randomness: The generator has passed millions of sample tests to ensure that numbers (and therefore cards) are distributed evenly. No specific cards, seats, or players are favored over time

Numbers are the cards! If you fail to understand, read this part again: "The testing labs check that the raw random numbers generated are translated accurately into a 52-card deck without any distortion or bugs during execution"

So if the numbers are random the cards are random.
But if you say you believe the deck is randomly shuffled, what about the fairness of the dealing process do you question?

Do you somehow think they deal you (or any certain player type) cards from the bottom of the proven randomly shuffled deck? Because you dont question the shuffle, you question the "dealing". You seem completely lost at how an RNG hand distribution works.

Also realize that if something like that was happening, just any interference at all, it wouldnt be mathematically fair, unbiased and unpredictable.
Which is a big part of what they are tested on and you just agreed thats correct.

Because not everybody misunderstands how an RNG works like you do 😉

We're getting somewhere. You finally understand what is certified. And it's not the deal, which is what I asked for in my original post. Has any site verified that their game is fair? And the answer is clearly no, they have not. Despite your rambling about RNG certificates, the shuffle is the only thing that's certified and it's one small part of the game. As of today, their is no provably fair poker site available.

Maybe when you provide certification of a fair game we could continue this conversation. Until then it's just you going around in circles about RNG certification.

slugant, you get paid by an online casino or something? why are you defending online sites so hard?

Im not defending any site when I say there is RTA, botting, ghosting, superusing, datamining colluding whatever going on. Most sites have terrible customer service too. GG has ridiculous rake. Lots of things bad about sites that I would never say if I was defending them. And they certainly wouldnt pay me to say those things.

But I like facts.
And a rigged RNG has never been proven and everyone who claims it is doesnt understand an RNG at all and they never are willing to show their findings either.
If you are sure of something you can show it, but somehow for riggies it doesnt work this way. If you claim the world is flat, you better have some damn good evidence to show otherwise you are spreading nonsense.

LOL you are not understanding any of it if you still (want to) believe that an RNG check is merely about shuffling and not the whole dealing process including outcome (cards dealt). So what does an RNG certification mean to you anyway when you cant comprehend it.

You've said you believe the RNG is shuffled correctly and fairly.
But you dont believe "the game" is fair when it comes to dealing the cards.
Be specific, in the process of dealing cards online, what is "the game" to you?

Are sites shuffling the decks perfectly random but then picking a different deck to deal?
In your warped mind, what specific action in the dealing process is not fair and not random?
How come these perfectly random & fair shuffled decks do not lead to fair dealings in your belief?

And again, please answer these questions as specific as possible without using purposefully abstract and meaningless terms like "the game"

Who knows what's going on during dealing. None of it is certified. Never has been. Maybe you should ask the sites about that rather than have me explain it. They are responsible after all.

If you're still in any doubt, post the Pokerstars RNG certification here and point out where it mentions dealing the cards. Tip, it doesn't.

The sites still make money every day, more than you'll ever make and they don't care about whiny losers like yourself. How does that make you feel?

It clearly has.

They have explained it. By showing an RNG certication. You just dont understand anything about it.

But I asked you
--
You've said you believe the RNG is shuffled correctly and fairly.
But you dont believe "the game" is fair when it comes to dealing the cards.
Be specific, in the process of dealing cards online, what is "the game" to you?

Are sites shuffling the decks perfectly random but then picking a different deck to deal?
In your warped mind, what specific action in the dealing process is not fair and not random?
How come these perfectly random & fair shuffled decks do not lead to fair dealings in your belief?

And again, please answer these questions as specific as possible without using purposefully abstract and meaningless terms like "the game"
--

And the most specific you could get is "Who knows what's going on during dealing"

You are talking so far out your arse its just funny

What could be happening during dealing (while you agree the shuffle has been done perfectly fair & random) that creates a rigged dealing process?
What are they doing to fair and random decks that still provides a skewed outcome?
Just name one thing.

There is a core of about 5 people on here who do this. There is absolutely no reason to do this, other than they have a vested financial interest in online poker sites, in one form or another.

No reason at all.

Only a few, the same few, do this on here. Theres a few dim hangers on, who troll because thats their level, but only a few aggressive site backers.

The Moderator threatens to block you if you have the opinion that all is not good at these sites, unless you can 'prove' its rigged, something no-one has the capability of doing as no programme to that level exists for an individual.

And no-one has been able to prove it for 25yrs or so, as they wouldnt have the funds or even get anyone to change anything if they went to that humongus expense. As there is no regulator that exists who is interested in this side of things. They dont understand poker is not a game of chance and they dont care as long as sites are run with player limits not being breached and advertising is legal.

But if you have that well documented opinion that the deck is not performing to true odds, you face a ban if you talk about it. Sound a fair and reasonable situation?

Take online Forex Trading for example. Banks and institutions run an algorithm to manipulate retail traders (individual, small time investors), for them to profit. This is fact and its accepted by everyone who deals in Forex. People still trade and a very small minority can beat the system and profit, whereas the majority do not.

This is what online poker is. An algorithm to maximise profit, in anyway that may be, in any given game. A player that needs to win on this occasion, otherwise he may leave the site? It sorts it. A player that is high volume that needs to be kept happy? It sorts it. Its working all the time to ensure the best outcome for the sites profits.

This is why you see highly unlikely outcomes at an unrelenting rate. A coin flipped landing on heads 20 times on the run, at 50% is over a million to 1. You can easily lose 10 times on the run to a less than 20% chance most days at online poker. Everyday.

Everyone knows this, everyone endures this. Thays why most people see online poker for what it is. Anyone who doesnt and backs sites to an insane level, is just benefitting from the algorithm due to high volume player protection and would like to keep it that way.... by requesting the impossible and mocking anyone who threatens their income.

If you think anyone would develop a poker site and sit back and think, whatever happens, happens... if most players leave due to insufficient funds, so be it. If our highest volume players start losing and change sites, so be it.... if you think this is a business plan for online poker, you are deluded.

Its weird how you say nobody can prove a rig then describe a rig that could be proven extremely easily.

You talk about having a well documented opinion yet you post your claim without proof attached.

Which according to your post would get you banned yet you have an 13 year old account.

You contradict yourself other riggies contradict you.

You make up random statistics that you can see happening every day playing online poker yet cant even produce a single incident of this.

Does it not bother you that none of what you claim makes sense, not even a little bit?