GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Kobe and Jordan were many years removed from the league by this age. When Lebron plays next year Kobe wasn't even alive at the equivalent age and Jordan had spent 8.5 years retired and 2 years load managing in College.

And Lebron saved the Lakers and made them relevant after the joke status Kobe left them in.

Lebron is only a winning player at 15 ppg or maybe even less, so 41 year old MJ would've done that easily.

And of course, MJ wasn't on steroids and juiced to the gills like Lebron is.

It's common knowledge that Lebron is the Barry Bonds of the NBA... The FBI literally caught him purchasing tons of stuff but it was simply covered up and obvious lies were allowed to stand... It's sad that today's weak-minded fan would rather cheer a fully-juiced cheater (that still massively loses and gets owned) instead of respecting real competitors, integrity, and winners.. smh

Jordan was better at 40 or 41 because he was still a winning player at 20 ppg, while Lebron is a massive loser at that scoring level.. Lebron craters the offense and defense at that scoring level and doesn't turn positive until he's reduced to like 13 ppg..

Normally, a losing player wouldn't be given the green light, but the NBA has been a fraud to prop up Lebron for a while now.. It started with the*decision " to let him hand-pick 6 straight preseason favorites.

Career PPG in Regular Season

MJ
Wilt





everyone else






Career PPG in Playoffs

MJ






everyone else

Ultimately, career points is for unintelligent people that don't know what an "average" is.. Unfortunately, that's a lot of people.

^^^ History has already proven this wrong,

It's been 30 years since Jordan retired from the Bulls, yet he's still considered the goat by the majority of people, while remaining more relevant than any of today's players..

He's still the biggest star and story in the game.

Heck, he just 3-peated in NASCAR and he's at least 3 billion richer than Lebron and any other athlete.

We've established that Jordan and Lebron played against many of the same players (Duncan, Shaq, Kidd, Kobe, Garnett), except Jordan fared far better against them...

Secondly, the best players that Jordan beat (Magic, Shaq) are better than the best guys Lebron beat (Duncan,, Curry)... Thirdly, today's game has almost zero 6'6" or 6'7" starting SG's - it's a league shrimps and the shortest ever at 4 positions..

Today's "position-less" basketball is actually just everyone handling the ball like a primary ballhandler, so the fits are redundant and far worse than prior eras - aka Luka would fit with Lebron if Lebron could ACTUALLY play like AD/Duncan/Malone, aka a real big..

Accordingly, the elimination of the big man position from today's game has destroyed chemistry and team quality compared to prior eras... Prior eras would RAGDOLL today's trash chemistry.. The good players also move off screens less, further hampering fits.

Look how Nigeria and international teams beat the US... And that's another thing - Jordan would face MUCH WEAKER anerican talent, aka Ant, Tatum and Ja don't compare to Shaq, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, etc.. It's a huge gap.

Let's hold the same standard to Lebron and Kobe at 22 years old:

STATS VS SPURS AT 22 YEARS OLD:

Kobe.......... 33/7/7 on 53%
Lebron'...... 22/7/7 on 35% (6 TO's)

^^^ So Kobe was far superior from 22-31 years old (01-10')... This is proven by Kobe outplaying Lebron against the 08' Celtics, 10' Celtics, 11' Mavs, and also at age 22 against the Spurs.. Kobe also dominated and swept the 08' Spurs.

The 94' Rockets are considered one of the most obvious 1-man teams in history, so Jordan would've 4-peated in 94'.

However, the Hakeem/Drexler Rockets would've beaten the Bulls in 95'.

I believe this because Horry proved capable of playing the all-round game like Pippen with a 19.0 gamescore in those Finals (higher than any of Pippen's 6 Finals)... Horry was an alpha clutch assassin and therefore the opposite of a beta bricklayer like Pippen - Horry said himself that he would "lock up sorry a*s Pippen", aka no respect (video here)... Accordingly, "bet the house" on the Rockets (even though the 4x champion Bulls would be favored).. Hindsight allows us to gain these insights.. Regardless, MJ is still goat.

1 guy in history arrived on a lottery team and turned them into champion in 1 year, and it's AD... Accordingly, AD saved the Lakers by lifting them out of lottery.

AD actually led the Lakers in scoring, while turning the defense from worst to first... It's a goat season but he gets no credit because of LeFraud...

Similarly, Mo arrived on a 45 win team and provided the spacing that LeDrive needed to maximize his game and add 21 wins.. And of course Wade taught Lebron how to win and coddled Lebron in the 11' Playoffs.. Nowadays, Luka and Reaves carry Lebron's negative weight every night.

"Relevant" is code for "massively losing but the media still covers them anyway"

Pretty easy to be ppg leader when you chuck shots in a weak era.

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THE CREATORS OF USAGE:

"In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that individual Offensive Ratings (ORtg) shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg (efficiency per possession) needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate (number of possessions used), aka how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role/usage, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg/efficiency, while a smaller role makes easier to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to other players in a similar usage/role"

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Calculating Individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings | Basketball-Reference.com

The only 2 players in the top 60 for career possessions used (usage) that have higher efficiency on those possessions (ortg) are Shai and Jokic, who played entirely in the post-2017 beginner format (when the entire league had record ortg) and they also have 5-6 percentage points less in usage/role than Jordan (so it's easier for them to be efficient).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_career.html

Basketball-Reference.com

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Usage Pct | Basketball-Reference.com

LOL I looked it up, in his age 38 and 39 season Jordan was 22.9ppg and 20ppg on .468 and .491 TS%.

In his age 39-40-41 seasons Lebron is 25.7 24.4 21.3 on .630 .604 .587

Even if you decide to just sort by PPG AND add a couple of years Lebron is better, but I wonder how many fewer possessions it takes him given the difference in TS%.

Weaker efficiency with a brand of ball that fits with every teammate and allows teammates to play to capacity

>

High efficiency stat-padding brand that destroys teammates and reduces dynasty rosters to lottery

Again, Lebron's presence craters the Lakers offense and defense (big negative losing player), while 40-year MJ maintained the defense and increased the offense (overall positive winning player).

Ultimately, MJ could average 20 ppg at 40 while still being a winning/positive player, while Lebron can't.. that makes Jordan better

And he only scored 17 points in 40 minutes, thereby being massively-carried by Luka and Reaves, and being an ordinary role player.

This is the optimal format that allows winning, whereas any uptick in lebron's offensive burden destroys the offense, as well as Luka and Reaves' capacity for historic duo status..

In other words, LeCancer costs the Lakers the title and possibly a Luka/Reaves dynasty as well

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EFFICIENCY AT HIGH VOLUME - PLAYERS WITH 25+ FGA and 45% FG

Regular Season:

Michael Jordan...... 1987, 1993
Rick Barry.............. 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo......... 1975
George Gervin...... 1982
Kobe Bryant.......... 2006
Elgin Baylor............1963
Tiny Archibald.......1973
Dominique............ 1988

Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan...... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor.............. 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo............ 1974, 1975
George Gervin..........1975, 1982
Jerry West................. 1966
Rick Barry................. 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon... 1995
Kobe Bryant............. 2007
Dominique................ 1988
Allen Iverson............ 2005
Kareem Jabbar......... 1975

* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career

Jordan-hater and fraudster Backpicks:

Despite Jordan spotting the field 2 seasons of weak ppg and efficiency as a Wizard, Jordan is STILL the most efficient player ever based on Player Efficiency Rating, and the best scorer by far based on PPG, while also having the best efficiency per possession (ortg) of anyone in the top 20 for possessions used (usage).

Furthermore, no one in history has anywhere near as many high efficiency and high burden (high FGA) seasons as Jordan, as shown above... He's really the ONLY high volume and high efficiency player in history, because no one else is close

lol @ using 25 FG attempts and 45% criteria. I mean what does this even mean? You've basically just listed players not named Iverson that took 25 field goal attempts per game.

So for instance LeBron James averaged shooting 50% on 22.2 FG attempts per game in 22. Are you saying it would have been better for him to chuck up another 2.8 shots per game at 5% shooting (which means he would have qualified for the 25+ FGs @ 45% group)?

JFC.

LeBron is number 2 on the PER list (I can't find the other list, but I assume he's high on that one) and he spotted Jordan 3 years as a teenager and 5+ years in his late 30s.

Does that make him second GOAT?

Speaking of efficiency. It will take Durant 2,000 less shots to reach 32,292 points.

The Lakers carried and hid LeBron so well yesterday that he ended up with the best +/- on the team.

Instead of finding a wide open teammate for 3 or in the paint? Definitely more efficient for winning basketball.

They're basically the same team numbers wise when he's on and off. But somehow he craters the offense and defense when he's on.

^^^ If that's what was necessary to carry the load and win.

Carrying the scoring load often requires bad efficiency because you're facing max defensive attention - Jordan won in these scenarios while Lebron didn't - Lebron couldn't carry the load against top teams and needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention - he literally can't defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load vs top teams)

Ultimately, it's better to have bad efficiency but carry the team to victory, versus not being aggressive enough and losing.. The latter is the story of Lebron's career (lacking aggression and losing)

It's common for role players to have the best plus-minus on the team.

And do you realize that Lebron didn't have a positive plus-minus in the 13' Finals, yet I don't hear you clamoring for Ray Allen to get FMVP

If Durant took more shots like Jordan, he could've carried a bigger load and won with the casts that he had in OKC (which were far superior to Jordan's)

So you've identified why Jordan is the goat - he could carry a bigger load than everyone else

Btw, Durant needed 800 more turnovers, 300 more FT's, and 100 more games to match Jordan, so he HASN'T actually matched Jordan

Also, Jordan has better efficiency per possession (ortg), despite using far more possessions (usage)

Tldr: KD is nowhere near MJ. It's a joke tbh

Do you guys realize that Lebron's style lost by record amount many times, and was upset 5 times, and has a lottery record on the championship level (the worst record ever)?

Lebron has more bad losses than anyone in history, aka losing as the favorite, or losing while getting locked up, or losing by record amount with all-star teammates.. This guy lost in the 1st Round three times despite top 5 teammates (Luka or AD).

No one is a bigger loser than Lebron, which is why it's laughable when (invariably low intelligence people) say that Lebron had "the best career ever"... How is the worst championship record ever considered a goat career, or losing repeatedly by the biggest margins ever, or having goat meltdowns and chokes that change history??? How is that the goat career?.. It's pure delusion and fantasy

Among the top 20 all-time users of possessons (usage), Jordan has best efficiency per possession (ortg)

So you're wrong about Jordan - his efficiency was goat, just like everything else in his game

Imagine if Jordan teamed up with Bird and went 2 for 4, including the goat choke and record loss...

How is that the goat career?

How is losing by more than anyone ever has 3 different times the goat career?

How is the goat meltdown and the goat choke in 2010 and 2011 (which both changed history) the goat career?

How is 6 Finals losses and the worst championship record ever the goat career?. And they're are all catastrophic and BAD losses via sweep, record margin, or upset.

How is losing in the 1st Round three times with top 5 teammates a goat career?

How is all this carnage the goat career? It's absurd.

The very act of teaming up with opposing franchise players and top 5 guys is DISQUALIFYING and renders Lebron's career a joke... And how is barely winning 1 chip with each dynasty roster the goat career?.. It's literally the most underachieving career ever.

The reality is that most media can't say Lebron is as good as Jordan, so they invent other ways of putting Lebron up there by saying he had the "best career"... It's more fraud... Ultimately, 6 for 6 in the modern era with 10 scoring titles is the goat career (while defeating max defensive attention each time)... It's obvious

Can you please explain why less efficient scoring is better than more efficient scoring?

As if I'm a child that's never watched basketball before