GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Antawn Jamison never made it past the 2nd round in his whole career.
Larry Hughes never went past the 2nd round without Lebron. Same for Mo and Zilgauskas.
Wade is the only player who ever accomplished anything without LeBron. Chris Bosh never made it past the first round.
Wade only accomplished with the help of Shaq.
Antawn Jamison never made it past the 2nd round in his whole career.
Larry Hughes never went past the 2nd round without Lebron. Same for Mo and Zilgauskas.
Wade is the only player who ever accomplished anything without LeBron. Chris Bosh never made it past the first round.
^^^ You claim that Kyrie and Love "never did anything without Lebron", even though they made the Finals without him... By that logic, Lebron never did anything until he teamed up with Wade... Infact, Lebron was horrible until he teamed up with Wade.
Checkmate
Prior to joining Wade, Lebron had 2 lotteries, 3 losses in the 2nd Round, and 2 historic upset losses, while also having 2 series of getting locked up more than anyone ever has - i.e. no one ever shot 35% and 6 TO's per game in a series except Lebron in the 07' and 08' Playoffs.
So Lebron was horrible and a complete joke before Wade, and that's precisely why he "decided" to join Wade and form super-teams.. He realized that he was a horrible choker and upset loser with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, so he formed "super-teams" of 3 franchise players, aka "big 3".
Btw, when we compare Pippen's time without Jordan to Jamison without Lebron, we see that Pippen was completely destroyed in the 99' 1st Round and outplayed by 19-year old Kobe, while Jamison was awesome and outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round.. Jamison was a 20k scorer and clutch player that briefly had a rivalry with Kobe, while Pippen was a system player that couldn't really score.. Ultimately, the point is that Lebron had a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option during the 2010 season, and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
Ultimately, your argument would have merit if Love, Bosh, AD and company got to team up with a bunch of different stars in their prime and STILL couldn't win... Again, your argument would have merit if EVERYONE got to team up with a bunch of different stars in their prime and still couldn't win - but that wasn't the case... ONLY Lebron got to team up with a bunch of different stars in their prime (yet still no 3-peat, 70 wins or dynasty regardless of cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ).
Lebron had Shaq's help too:
2010 Shaq 2nd Rd...... 13.5 ppg.... (Lebron. 26 ppg choke)
2006 Shaq Finals........ 13.7 ppg.... (D Wade 36 ppg clutch)
Lebron also had Jamison, Mo, Varejao, and Zydrunas, yet he stifled these guys and turned them into spot-up shooter - he never learned to elevate teammates and get the most out of them like MJ did.. MJ's teammates played near their career highs (capacity) alongside him, while most of Lebron's teammates play materially below capacity alongside him.. This difference in teammate performance is because MJ's skillset allows the ball to move and more sophisticated offense than Lebron's "downhill" skillset.
Lebron also lost in the 1st Round with this:
2024 AD........... 25 ppg
2025 Luka........ 30 ppg
Or the Finals with this:
2011 Wade....... 27 ppg
2017 Kyrie........ 29 ppg
2023 AD............ 25 ppg ((WCF)
^^^ no one ever lost so much with teammates getting 25+ ppg (aka Lebron has worst-ever chemistry/brand of ball)
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Thread Cliffs
According to Carnivore and McLovin, Kyrie and Love never did anything without Lebron, which means that Lebron never did anything until he teamed up with FMVP Wade... Infact, Lebron was horrible until he teamed up with Wade, and he was even worse in the West until AD lifted him out of the lottery.
Prior to joining Wade, Lebron had 2 lotteries, 3 losses in the 2nd Round, and 2 historic upset losses, while also having 2 series of getting locked up more than anyone ever has - i.e. no one ever shot 35% and 6 TO's per game in a series except Lebron in the 07' and 08' Playoffs.
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Revised Thread Cliffs
Before the "decision" to team up with opposing franchise players in their prime, Lebron was a perennial loser just like Westbrook, Harden and all high-scoring and high assist players, aka ball-dominator.s... The difference is that ONLY Lebron did the "decision" to team up with opponents and an established winner/FMVP, otherwise he would've kept losing just like Lillard, Luka and all ball-dominators in history... Even after the team-ups, Lebron's horrible chemistry made it nearly impossible to win, so he still mostly lost badly, while producing much weaker teams than his peers like Duncan, Curry and Kobe.
Ultimately, the stats show that Lebron's ball-dominant skillset, aka "bron-ball" increases everyone's assisted buckets/spot-up role, which craters their assists and creates low assist teams.. This chemistry is so poor that preseason favorites lose by record amount, and they barely win 50 games to become perennial Finals underdog... Accordingly, Lebron inherently produces simple offense, weak chemistry and weak teams compared to his peers.. Lebron's production of weaker teams is why he's inferior to so many guys that produced dominant regular seasons/strong favorites and soaring dynasties, i.e. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Magic, and more
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Final Thread Cliffs
The only way the "they couldn't win without lebron" argument works is if Bosh, Love, Kyrie and AD failed to win after getting the same opportunities to team-up with prime stars that Lebron did... however, ONLY lebron got to team up with a bunch of different stars in their prime, while Kyrie, Bosh, Love and AD sacrificed their prime for Bron-ball.
Furthermore, Wade DID win without Lebron and taught Lebron how to win.. Lebron's teammates were real stars that played great or dominated without Lebron, such as FMVP Wade or Jamison dominating Lebron in the 07' 1st Round... Otoh, Pippen was a system player that couldn't dominate and was destroyed by Kobe in the 99' 1st Round, or Ewing in the 94' 2nd Round - he was nothing without MJ or the triangle... Pippen also never made the Finals without Jordan like Wade or Kyrie did without Lebron.
Ultimately, fans say that Kyrie & AD never won without Lebron, but Lebron never won before joining FMVP Wade.. Prior to joining Wade, Lebron was a horrible loser... He had 2 lotteries, 3 losses in the 2nd Round, and 2 historic upset losses, while also having 2 series of getting locked up more than anyone ever has - i.e. no one ever shot 35% and 6 TO's per game in a series except Lebron in the 07' and 08' Playoffs.
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Pippen without Jordan
1999 1st Round
Rice............ 18.7 on 55%
Pippen....... 18.3 on 32%
1994 ECSF
Ewing......... 23.1 on 50%
Pippen....... 21.7 on 40%
Lebron's sidekicks without him:
2007 1st Round
Jamison...... 32 on 48%
Lebron'....... 28 on 50%
2024 WCF
Kyrie.......... 27.0 on 49%
Ant............. 24.6 on 43%
Plus FMVP Wade
Lebron simply destroys any teammate that isn't one of the best shooters itl... You won't get destroyed if you're Kyrie, Mo or Kyle Korver.
If a team tries to build around secondary producers like Klay or Pippen, the team will lack capacity to add talent because any decent scorer might supplant them as "the guy" or 1st option.. They simply aren't dominant enough to be franchise players, who generally need to be dominant scorers or all-time floor generals.
For these obvious reasons, secondary producers like Klay and Pippen aren't considered "franchise players" that can build a team from scratch - Pippen was simply handed a fully-developed organization and dynasty in 94', which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.
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THREAD SUMMARY
Synopsis and Top 10 Argument
If a player's career assisted rate on field goals is below 40%, then they're a primary ball-handler that scores mostly unassisted by teammates, aka ball-dominator... But the problem lies with high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, since they have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hurts the team assist ranking over time and increasingly places teammates in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates (1)... The increased spot-up roles for teammates are a direct funnel to Lebron's assists, while reducing his teammates' assists, thus causing low-assist teams compared to the typical champion (2, 3).. Low assist teams are the Achilles heel of high-scoring ball-dominators because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists, except the goat choke in the 11' Finals..
Furthermore, by turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction, so they can't be the leading scorer for dynasties or dominant champions, and are 0 for 12 in doing so (4).. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs or jumpshooters (12 for 12).. This puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside the top 10 all-time (behind the best bigs and jumpshooters)... With ball-dominators outside the top 10, the actual top 10 is a subjective mix of bigs and jumpshooters, such as MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar.. This is actually a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear...
Ultimately, high-scoring ball-dominance lets defenses rest, so they have more capacity for offense - this loses the attrition battle and doesn't adhere to a tenet of all competition that the best defense is a good offense.. By failing to win the attrition battle, Lebron's ball-dominance is susceptible to teams with zippy ball movement that wins the attrition battle, such as the Nuggets, Warriors, or Spurs - they all beat Lebron by record margin, sweep, or both, despite having equal rosters or worse most of the time...
The massive upsets by the 1-star Mavs and Magic were also products of Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance, which isn't a top 10 all-time caliber of basketball - it can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player and needs super-teams of multiple franchise players, yet still has the lowest win frequency of any top 10 candidate.. 1 for 6 with AD isn't top 10 caliber, and neither are the mostly losing tenures with Love/Kyrie (couldn't win 60 games), or Wade/Bosh (goat choke and record loss bookending a win over babies and teammate bailout).
Early Career and Receiving 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
Early Career is Misreported
If the 2008 Cavs had the worst cast in the league, then how did they basically beat the 2008 Celtics with Lebron playing worse than anyone ever has?... No one in history shot 35% with 5 TO's per game in a series except Lebron in the 08' ECSF, and also the 07' Finals (35.6% and 5.8 TO's).
It's easy to forget that Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and they added a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make their first playoffs in 2006 (previous post).
But instead of 3-peating, Lebron played worse than anyone ever has in the 07' and 08' Playoffs and produced a 45-win team until Mo's all-star spacing took the team to another level in 2009, and helped Lebron's game... By elevating a 45-win loser to a 66-win league favorite, Mo's spacing proved to be the difference and a historic part of the foundation for Curry's style of play in later years...
By 2010, the Cavs were a 7th-year organic juggernaut and added another 2x all-star that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round, while also being a rare 20k scorer (Jamison).. It's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option, so the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. They also added a better center than Jordan ever had (Shaq).
The high defensive ranking in 09' and 10' was due primarily to Lebron's teammates, since the Cavs had great defensive ranking in 07' when Lebron was still 2 years away from being viewed as a good defender/all-defense.. The Cavs simply had a bevy of decorated defenders like Snow, Hughes, Varejao, Ben Wallace, and Zydrunas (2.1 bpg) - Jordan never had this caliber of defensive help that allowed top defensive ranking without Jordan himself being a good defender (all-defense).
Choking
When Jordan lost to the Bad Boys in the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals, he averaged 26.7 on 35.5% with 5.3 TO's per game to lose a very winnable series in 7 games... That's a choke by anyone's standards and a massive one - I don't know if anyone has ever averaged 35% and 5 TO's in a series.
Oh wait - I got the names confused - it was Lebron that wet the bed in a winnable 7-game series with 26 on 35% and 5 TO's in the 08' ECSF... It was his 2nd major choke after 22 on 36% and 6 TO's in the 07' Finals - this performance at 22 years old was a joke compared to 22-year Amare dominating the 05' Spurs with 37 on 55%, or 22-year old Kobe dominating the 01' Spurs with 33/7/7 on 53%..
In addition to the chokes in 07' and 08', Lebron had the worst-ever defensive blunder of defending Courtney Lee in the 09' ECF instead of Hedo or Rashard, while his 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4 won the series for Orlando - Lebron was a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for that series.. This choke in 09, coupled with the chokes in 07', 08', and the 2010 meltdown were the precursors that should've predicted the goat choke in 2011.
Accordingly, Lebron was a massively-choking player and the media simply lies and pretends otherwise.. In addition to his chokes each year from 07' to 11', he's 0% on championship game-winners or tyers (0-7), with zero scores on the last possession of 1-possession Finals game in 10 Finals.. He's also only 37% on game-winners in the playoffs overall, with only 40% clutch-time efficiency (48% for old Jordan in 97' and 98' with 20% greater burden/attempts)..
Bron' lacks sufficient brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load vs top teams
Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team or Finals team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams.. He also never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).
Since he can't carry the scoring load, he needs extra star help compared to guys that could carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ, and this need for expensive offensive stars reduces the GM's capacity to get good defenders... So an inability to carry the scoring load hurts a team on many levels.. And a player like MJ or Curry's ability to carry the scoring load and therefore allow the GM to surround him with cheap defenders has a greater defensive impact than the player's individual defense.. This is why weaker defenders that can carry the scoring load like Bird or Curry still had #1 defenses.
The reason that Lebron can't carry the scoring load is because he's too ball-dominant as his scoring levels increase, so he can't beat top teams at carry-job volumes and therefore needs franchise players that can match his scoring (AD, Wade, Luka)... Otoh, off-ball guys like Curry or Jordan score 40 while the ball moves, so they can beat top teams with high scoring levels and win with secondary producers (Klay, Pippen).
Underachiever
Lebron had 6 straight preseason favorites and no one else had more than 3... Then he fell to underdog or lost for all 6 years, except the Allen miracle.. So he underachieves favored talent by losing with preseason favorites, or falling to underdog.. Lebron has the most losses with preseason favorites ever (4) and has a losing record with preseason favorites (3-4).
Lebron's weak brand of ball causes a losing record with every type of good team, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and 3 losses with homecourt (09-11').
Media Misreporting Durant's Career
The "Decision" gave Lebron 6 straight preseason favorites, which is unprecedented because no one else in history had more than 3 straight.. Then he enjoyed further unprecedented help when his sidekick outplaying the league MVP..
The media simply pretended that this unprecedented help wasn't something that needed to be overcome by another unprecedented advantage (KD's Warriors).. So both Lebron and KD had unprecedented advantages, but Lebron's lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').
Lebron falls short of the top caliber of MVP's, teams and achievement or accolade
Half of Lebron's MVP's lack titles and they all lack scoring titles, while his team achievement also falls short due to no 3-peat, 70 wins or dynasty (never a great team).. Lebron also wasn't all-defense in his 30's, so he wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips, while passing less than MJ for the first half of his chips (less playoff APG through 9 years of their respective playoff careers - 06-14' vs 85-93')..
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Young Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
Unfortunately, his ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he couldn't develop these guys into champions like MJ did Pippen
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Perennial losing and choking before teaming up with champion Wade:
2004 - lottery
2005 - lottery with the East all-star center
2006 - 2nd Round loss with only 26 ppg
2007 - 22 on 35% and 6 TO's (the worst anyone ever played)
2008 - 2nd Round loss while locked up - 26 on 35% and 5 TO's
2009 - lost as -700 favorite to injured, 1-star team
2010 - 2nd Rd loss due to goat meltdown as -500 favorite (21 on 34% for last 3 games)
^^^ Apparently it's okay for Lebron to be a perennial loser without help, but not his teammates, who sacrificed their prime for Bron-ball.
Of course Lebron HAD help, such as 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen across the board (previous post).. Unfortunately, Bron-ball imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he couldn't develop these guys into champions like MJ did 1990 Pippen
KD couldn't win with Kyrie and Harden
KD couldn't win with Westbrook and Harden
KD couldn't win with Booker and Paul
KD couldn't win with Kyrie and Harden
KD couldn't win with Westbrook and Harden
KD couldn't win with Booker and Paul
Lebron was the first player to miss the playoffs with Westbrick, while KD had a goat achievement by making the Finals with Westbrick.
Otherwise, KD was post-achilles in all those situations, yet he would've won in 2021 if Kyrie was healthy - they looked unstoppable together and were about to sweep Giannis..
No one knocks KD for failing to win with an injured Kyrie because Lebron couldn't either in 2015.. It's the same thing except KD dominated the champs (21' Bucks), while Lebron shot under 40% against the champs (15' Warriors).
Ultimately, KD's skillset fits perfectly with everyone, so most people feel that pre-injury KD could've 4-peated with Wade/Bosh, while Lebron's inferior ball-dominance only went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss.. It's simply a historical fact that Lebron underachieves rosters compared to his peers (Duncan , Curry, Kobe), who produced MUCH better teams with less help... Lebron's tendency was to barely win 50 games with the preseason favorite, thus falling to perennial Finals underdog - THIS TRASH doesn't compare to his peers, who produced teams that dominated the regular season and playoffs.
The problem with Lebron is that his pull-up jumper is bad, so that's why he's so bad in the clutch - his need to attack the rim makes him predictable in clutch-time and exploitable.
Jumpshooting is so important in basketball that the goat must be a goat-level jumpshooter from either 2 or 3 with great touch.. In Lebron's case, he's a beginner jumpshooter with stone hands touch - no touch - and he admitted that he struggles to pull up going right.. What a joke
KD couldn't win with Kyrie and Harden
KD couldn't win with Westbrook and Harden
KD couldn't win with Booker and Paul
Are you saying Lebron > KD?
KD's team ceilings are the highest ever - aka the goat team, while Lebron produces the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate.. He barely wins 50 games with the preseason favorite (thereby falling to perennial underdog) and then gets destroyed in the playoffs.
Furthermore, you guys are the ones that don't care about developing a champion, since you're fine with Lebron hand-picking preseason favorites - you only had a problem when KD started doing it, smh... KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond and wasting nearly all of his prime.
By the time KD did the team-ups you mentioned, he was post-achilles with injured teammates... So again, only Lebron had many chances to team up with opposing franchise players that were in their prime, primarily because he was the 1st guy to do it and had a 6-year headstart on everyone.. In business, they call this being the "1st mover" in an industry - aka Lebron was 1st mover in the collision space..
Lebron's collusions rewarded him with a record 7 preseason favorites, but he only went 3 for 7 in titles because he has the worst chemistry and brand of ball ever, detailed elsewhere itt.. His athletic talent is nearly matched by how bad his brand of basketball is, and how much it underperforms rosters compared to his peers..
Specifically, when guys like Kareem, MJ, Curry, Kobe, Duncan and others had anywhere near the help that lebron had, they produced soaring dynasties that dominated the regular season and playoffs... The excuse can't be that all these guys simply got lucky with better situations - it's clear that Lebron simply isn't as good as all these guys, due to a shaky jumper and simpleton "downhill" skillset that produces the weakest chemistry of all time.
Yeah yeah all the excuses for KD's failures and all the blame on only LeBron for his.
Literally everybody has Lebron > Durant. Most people put Kobe over Durant too and that ones more debatable.
Regular Season
Playoffs
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
Lebron carried Mo to 66 wins, and then Curry carried a LOWER PRODUCER to 73 wins.
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Nick Wright before the 17' Finals:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259Crw...
Any team with Draymond as the FIRST OPTION probably wouldn't win a single game all year... So when Love wins 40 in the West with no help, that shows he's superior to Draymond and an upcoming young superstar.. It's easy to forget that Draymond is a "system player" and not considered a star if he's losing on the Wizards, whereas Love is one of the rare cases of making All-NBA with a losing team.. love WAS considered a massive a star despite being on a losing team, while Draymond never would.
So Love > Draymond, while we've seen Kyrie match or exceed Curry... Accordingly, honest fans know that the 17' Cavs had a great chance, and they know that any team with the "so-called" goat and 2 other superstars should have a great chance against anyone... The only reason they wouldn't is because Lebron isn't actually the goat, or anywhere near.. And of course, they were blown away by record amount - it was only Kyrie's goat level and carry-job in Game 4 that prevented the outright sweep.
Furthermore, Klay was a much lower producer than Jeff Hornacek or even 2009 Mo Williams, so KD joined a 1-man team.. Unfortunately, Curry doesn't get credit for the carry-job because the term "73-win team" implies "stacked"... But history shows that Lebron carried Mo to 66 wins, and then Curry carried a LOWER PRODUCER (Klay) to 73 wins (see stats in previous post).
So you believe in those advanced stats? If so Lebron blows Kobe and Curry away. Jordan's peak is better and so as I've always said, I'm fine with Jordan as GOAT. But if you like those advanced stats then Kobe is borderline top 20 all time at best or something and Lebron is clearly up there just behind Jordan for peak and standing alone at the top for overall career.
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FUNDAMENTALS:
I'm just using your logic, aka if Westbrook is the reason for the Lakers' big underachievement in 2022, then it's pretty impressive that KD was able to fit decently with such a cancer and drag him to the Finals.
Lebron massively failed with Westbrook, while KD actually overachieved because OKC wasn't supposed to beat the Spurs that year.... Furthermore, Lebron failed with Luka while Kyrie went to the Finals with Luka.. So numerous guys did better with Lebron's teammates than Lebron did.. Heck, Arenas took Jamison to the 2nd Round, just like Lebron.
Literally everybody has Lebron > Durant. Most people put Kobe over Durant too and that ones more debatable.
People don't try to understand why Jordan was 6 for 6 - they think it's random or that Jordan's clutch was the only reason.. They don't understand how ideal his game was for high level offense or elite ball movement, and teammate development/elevation.. They also don't understand that a great record against the best teams (Finals teams) means that the player produces great teams, while a lottery record against Finals teams means the player produces much weaker teams and lower team ceilings.. Predictably, imposing spot-up roles via high-scoring primary ballhandling (ball-dominance) produces the latter (weaker teams)..
^^^ this relates to Durant because he's more like MJ in that he reached the top scoring level (off-ball), so he produces great chemistry and high team ceilings/good Finals records.. Otoh, Lebron is the opposite... His ball-dominant skillset has horrible fits and low team ceilings everywhere he goes. So in addition to being a better scorer, Durant's skillset produces better teams . The reality is that he should've stayed in Golden State and won several more chips, which would've put him ahead of Lebron in people's minds.
Durant never won anything until he joined a team that had already won and made back to back finals without him. Then when he was injured in the playoffs they almost won without him again. And he's won nothing since
You're literally the only person so biased that you put Durant above Lebron. It's unheard of and for good reason.
Late 80's teams were barely shooting 4-5 threes a game. Modern NBA teams launch 32-38 per game.
Other side of the ball, back then, no zone D, you had to commit to a double team, no staying in or near lane to protect the rim, no half help, no shading to the ball, that is why isolation scorers had so many opportunities.
Teams now can match up zones, stunt, hedge, sink and fly out...all the motion, etc.
It's too different to say anything about this stuff.
If Jordan shot the same 3 point fg today he'd be another all star, if he shot like Jaylen Brown, he'd be in the MVP conversation, if he shot 38% plus year after year, he'd maybe be the GOAT, though Joker is pretty good!
Different game, we'll never know.
Like was Jordan better than KD? Sure, I think so. But would I take Jordan over KD if I was a GM and 20 year old Jordan from the 80's and 20 year old KD showed up today on the draft board? I can't take that risk that Jordan would learn to shoot. I know KD can shoot. So, what are we even looking at here?
I was just getting ready to talk about Horny in light of the news about Charlotte planning to retire Dell Curry’s number. The Jazz drafting Dell over Horny was a monumental disaster; and also inexplicable considering the um, demographic factors.
Thurl Bailey, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Jeff Hornacek, would’ve been pretty good for consecutive drafts. And they were the best defense by the numbers from 86-90 without Jeff.
The ESPN article on Dell mentioned “Hornets owners Rick Schnall and Gabe Plotkin made the decision to retire Curry's No. 30 to continue the organization's connectivity with its history and past legends.”
The other Charlotte legend with his number retired is hilarious.
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3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:
1985..... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
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total....... 196-539 (36.4%)
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS (HIGHLIGHTED BELOW):
53-135 (39.2%)
SUMMARY
From 85-93', Jordan shot 36.4% on threes in games that he had 3+ attempts (539 attempts), and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only) - aka there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes.
Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes despite no practice, he would be elite in today's game WITH practice... 36-39% with no practice translates to over 40% WITH practice in today's game.
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This is obviously a tougher scoring format than today's wide open beginner format:
^^^ Packed paint, hands-ON, impeding the ballhandler ALLOWED, aka advanced format
Late 80's teams were barely shooting 4-5 threes a game. Modern NBA teams launch 32-38 per game. Other side of the ball, back then, no zone D, you had to commit to a double team, no staying in or near lane to protect the rim, no half help, no shading to the ball, that is why isolation scorers had so many opportunities.Teams now can match up zones, stunt, hedge, sink and fly ou
Luka on why it's much easier to score in today's NBA than overseas:
The league has mandated an open paint (defensive 3) and automatic penetration (can't impede ballhandlers), so the game has been redesigned to optimize a "downhill" skillset, ballhandlers, and wings in general... Consequently, Curry, Lebron and Durant average more now as old men than they averaged in their prime.
In contrast to Luka's statements about today's easy format, there was no weakside spacing in previous eras, aka no shooter in the weakside corner to pull defenders to the weakside, so MJ frequently faced 5 defenders on the strongside - today's players virtually NEVER face 5-defender strongsides:
In the 80's and 90's, they didn't do modern isos that start far away from the hoop and are spaced out with an open paint... Instead, all 10 players stood in or around the painted area, which looked like a glob of people waiting outside a popular nightclub - the lack of spacing and everyone stationed in the paint meant that there was no need for strong side flood or hedge, stunt or whatever - those modern schemes only became necessary as the court became spaced-out, and also to mitigate defensive 3 seconds..
The weakside spacing in particular didn't exist in prior eras, aka having a shooter in the weakside corner to bring defenders away from the strongside, thereby necessitating a strongside flood - this didn't exist in prior eras, so the strongside flood wasn't necessary.. There's no strongside flood needed in the gif above, and that was the standard - this is completely different and harder than the defensive 3 and open paints that Luka refers to in today's game.
If Jordan shot the same 3 point fg today he'd be another all star, if he shot like Jaylen Brown, he'd be in the MVP conversation, if he shot 38% plus year after year, he'd maybe be the GOAT
That's exactly what he did whenever he had today's volume - he always shot well in a regular season or playoff series when he had 3+ attempts (regular line).
Since he shot well at today's volumes without practice, he would be one of the best 3-point shooters WITH practice.. See the stats of MJ shooting at today's volumes in previous post above.
Jordan was the goat 2-point jumpshooter with goat form and great FT percentage, while he always shot well from three when he had today's volumes - he was just naturally a great shooter.
So you're just lying or purposefully gaslighting and trying to sound extreme.
When Jordan averaged 37 in 1987, it was mostly jumpshots.. If we had data from that year, it would show that Jordan made more jumpshots in that season than anyone ever has.. He's arguably the goat jumpshooter simply because of all the jumpshots he made at great efficiency... MJ could shoot 48-50% at 30 FG attempts (mostly jumpers) - no one else can do that.. He's the goat SHOOTING guard for a reason, and it ain't cause he couldn't shoot.
