GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

If Jordan was Lebron we'd all be hearing about how one of the greatest scorers of all time was run out of town and out of the league by Lebron.

At the time, Gervin was considered the 2nd greatest scorer of all time after Wilt.

Yep. All-star the year before.

Meanwhile LeBron gets Hughes, and that slow white center who's name I always forget and it's a travesty that he wasn't winning chips.

Jordan held back Pippen from true personal greatness.

Pippen was considered the 3rd best player in the NBA in his only prime season not playing with Jordan. He was never allowed to be 'that guy' when Jordan was around.

He clearly wanted to be 'that guy' and sacrificed a ton for Jordan.

93-94 season is clear and present fact that he was a bad fit with Jordan.
Checkmate fallguy.

Pippen was basically Kawhi of the 90's + durability and with a 90's level of shooting.

So i will be the first to admit I am incredibly clueless about the game of basketball.

However what I can say is that as someone relatively new to the game just watching elite teams from the 90s is so cringe at this point. The offense is so simple and the defense is laughably poor. Yes the skill level is incredible but it is clear how much better teams understand optimal play these days, which makes sense they have 30 years of knowledge to build on.

When Jordan played with Larry Hughes and Jerry Stackhouse he finished 37-45

Larry Hughes that guy you're supposed to win titles with. And Stackhouse who had finished in the top 15 of MVP voting 2 years in a row prior to joining Jordan.

Is it a coincidence Hughes suddenly became an all star when he didn't have to play with Jordan chucking 20 bricks a game?

Damn. Fallguy refuted.

And on Christmas too.

Merry X-Mas FG. I hope LeBron has a terrible game for you.

Lebron's stats are irrelevant because his brand of ball loses to 1-star teams as the massive favorite (i.e. Mavs, Magic, TWolves) and has a lottery record against Finals teams over massive sample (22-33).

So I don't know why anyone would ever cite a losing ball-dominator's stats - it's no different than citing Westbrook's stats

Of course Lebron's horrible brand of ball and chemistry has destroyed Reaves and stopped his All-NBA season, thereby destroying this Laker team for seasons to come.. This was supposed to be a breakout year for Luka/Reaves and tremendous growth was going to occur.... until LeCancer returned - the guy that craters everyone's assists and produces low assist teams.. Lebron has the worst brand of ball in history

If the 86' season is all you have, then you lose.

Badly

You fell for the biggest fraud in sports history

Ultimately, Lebron was locked up in many series and has many bad playoff losses (getting swept or gentleman sweep with star teammates, or outright upset)... Otoh, Jordan had the perfect career because he never got locked up and never had a bad playoff loss, and also produced the goat dynasty the instant he got another star.. He also has a long record of young player development, while Lebron has none - zero young players grew on Lebron's watch (as the team's sole leading scorer).

If you watched the early Cavs teams, you would know that anytime the Cavs needed a bucket, the go-to play was a pick-n-pop with Big Z

Accordingly, Zydrunas was a modern-style big that could shoot and averaged 2 blocks per game.

And yet the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas missed the 05' Playoffs and needed to add a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make the 06' Playoffs (and a great coach).. It's simply a historical fact that Jordan three-peated with less..

Those Cavs had an all-defensive backcourt with Snow/Hughes, and then Varejao, Lebron, Zydrunas and more.. All-stars like Mo and Jamison were added along with deluxe role players like Ben Wallace and Shaq.. This organic juggernaut was the league favorite in 09' and 10', but Lebron simply gave up a year early - there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011 that Dirk grabbed, but the Cavs had the long-standing defense and chemistry to beat them (which the Heat lacked)

.
92' Pippen.... 21.0 ppg.... 7.0 apg
94' Pippen.... 22.0 ppg.... 5.6 apg

Rookie Pippen...... 7.9 PPG

2nd Yr Pippen...... 14.4 PPG

3rd Yr Pippen....... ALL-STAR

4th Yr Pippen....... CHAMPION

°°° Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, and so did Horace and BJ... Woolridge, Oakley, Paxson and Sam Vincent also grew or achieved career highs alongside MJ.

So MJ has a long record of teammate development, while Lebron has none, aka zero young players grew from single-digit rookies to meaningful producers on his watch.

The reason why Jordan grew young players is because he played off-ball and was a big assist target for young ballhandlers to develop like BJ or Pippen - these guys had the ball in their hands while MJ was off-ball (and ready to bail them out if necessary).. Otoh, Lebron's skillset of ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. It's statistical fact because lebron increases his teammates' assisted buckets/spot-up role, which craters their assists... This is why zero young players grew on his watch.

Btw, Pippen's ppg + apg was higher in 92' than 94', so he played to full capacity alongside MJ.. This contrasts with Lebron's teammates that play far below capacity/career highs, such as Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook, Jamison, Reaves and many teammate craterings

This was perfect?

Those last possessions are perhaps the biggest big game choke job I've ever seen

Blake Griffin, Draymond and others were 3rd for MVP but no one thought they were 3rd best player

MVP voting isn't a player ranking and the voting is based on surprise factor.. Pippen had the biggest surprise factor ever (55 without MJ) and still couldn't win MVP or even place 2nd.. It's because everyone knew he was a secondary guy like Klay and not a big dog like Shaq, Curry or Hakeem. A real dude like Barkley would've EASILY won mvp with the kind of surprise factor that Pippen had.

Remember that Jordan needed 35/6/6/DPOY to win 50 games in 1988 with a lottery franchise, while Pippen won 55 with only 22 ppg because it was a fully-developed organization and dynasty - Jordan already did the heavy lifting..

Guys like Klay or Pippen were never considered "franchise players" that were tasked with building an organization from scratch - Pippen was simply handed a fully-developed organization and dynasty, which he cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.

Jordan:

- never locked up in a series

- never lost with homecourt or when expected to win

- zero "bad" losses, aka never swept or gentleman swept with a star teammate

^^^ Lebron has bevies of all of these

He was swept a bunch with star teammates, and he was upset 4 times, and he was locked up in the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, 10' ECSF, 11' Finals, 14' ECF, 16' 1st Rd, 21' 1st Rd, and more..

Btw, Lebron had 7 TO's in the 4th and OT of Game 4 during the 09' ECF.. It was an epic collapse and he was a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for the series (last 5 within 5).. Lebron is also the only player in history to average 6 TO's with 35% shooting in a series, and he did it twice in the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF... This is just a few of his many embarrassing meltdowns - he also melted down in the 21' 1st Round, 11' Finals or 24' 1st Round.. He's a joke

MJ was forced to win with the worst-shooting sidekick ever - the biggest lane-clogger of all-time:

Jordan also won with some of the worst three-point shooting teams in the league, while Lebron always needed a team that was top 10 in 3-pt efficiency - LeDrive needs great spacing (that's why Mo added 21 wins in 09'), while Jordan's goat jumpshooting could shoot over packed paints

Kawhi averaged 35 to beat Embiid, Jimmy Butler and peak Simmons

Then he won FMVP

Meanwhile, Pippen isn't capable of 25 ppg and he's 0/6 in FMVP (the most futility ever)

Ultimately, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.. So Jordan clearly won with much less

Today's offenses are more basic than ever, aka bring the ball up and jack a three, or play hot potato until you get a three.

Furthermore, the hands-off, open paint beginner format that Adam Silver instituted doesn't produce the best players and underachieves internationally by barely beating 1-man teams... Specifically, there are zero "great" American players anymore - all the great players are international because those tougher formats (physicality and clogged paint) produce better players.

The best Americans today are Ant, Ja and Tatum, which doesn't compare to the 90's with Shaq, Hakeem, Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Robinson , etc... And Americans are still the majority in the NBA!!!... aka since the majority of the NBA is worse than prior eras, we can conclude that the NBA is worse than prior eras

It's X-Mas FG. Say some nice things about LeBron and Pippen.

40-yr Jordan had a positive plus/minus and played 82 games, while Lebron is a massive negative and sits out many games

Only because you asked Fidstar, and Merry Christmas

If Lebron had persevered and stayed in Cleveland, he probably would've learned how to have great chemistry.. Accordingly, he might've had 5+ chips and 23 years in Cleveland - full of memorable teams... These teams would stand the test of time in people's minds - no bubble titles, bailouts, team-ups or shortened seasons required.. Only real, memorable titles that stand the test of time and rank up there with the best of the best.. The great chemistry means that his teams wouldn't be needy for talent like they are now, while also having better Finals records and consistent favorite status - he would simply have far better teams that people had more faith in... So it would be completely different from now.

I still don't think this would get him to MJ level because 80's MJ was an alien scorer/defender - no one touches him - then he added the chips to back up the goat talent.. His hangtime and touch is unmatched - the greatest combination of junpshooting skill and athleticism that the game has seen.. The greatest off-ball player and scoring instinct upon the catch that the game has seen... And the goat mentality, competitiveness, clutch and swag.

But back to Lebron... It's just woulda coulda shoulda... The facts are that Lebron didn't stick around to learn the chemistry - he never learned great chemistry or brand of ball, and is therefore inferior... Instead, he opted for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy), so his teams lacked chemistry and therefore high team ceilings/Finals record..

Regarding Pippen, imagine that 10 years from now, Wade comes out and says that Lebron was horrible to play with and a horrible player, and that Shai is better

And they didn't even win 6 chips together, nor was Wade carried in every series

So nah, can't say anything nice about Pippen, although he was competitive - I'll give him that - he hated to lose.. But we all know where he picked that up from