GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Like I'm thinking, "I'm having fun seeing that there are just SO MANY legit "Jordan Build" guys, discovering new ones!" Obviously, having these guys and a couple dozen other mobile bigs that can get out on the perimeter, often switch, playing along side the 6'6'' 220 7 foot arms guys... is key to modern d and would make Jordan's scoring harder like it does for every other huma
It's funny because the complete antithesis of these long switchable bigs is Shaq. Every game Hubie Brown would begin "now they are going to try to get Shaq to defend the pick and roll. He struggles out there but you live with that!" I mean every guy and his gal at the bar back then could tell you "shaq can't guard the pick and roll!".
It's true, even in high school, we were measured in our Converse (no they weren't Chuck Taylors tyvm... Bird and Magic wore converse. "Chose your weapon!"). The NBA officially switched to barefoot, like made it a league rule, idk at least five years ago I'd say.
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Jordan's level of dominance:
1) Winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player while CARRYING the scoring load in every series or playoff run (unique to MJ)
2) Successfully carry the scoring load on the championship level, aka defeat max defensive attention
3) Carry weak help over top teams, aka defeat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick
4) Win playoff series without a teamwork/team assist advantage over the opponent (carry the team despite teamwork deficit, and of course less scoring help as described above in #2 and #3)
I'm actually spending time looking up arm length and verticals, and you are "oh he's 6'7''!" Oh, he's listed with an SG beside his name, nobody starting these days with an SG is as big as Reggie Theus! Sure bro, Reggie Theus is stoppin Lebron and those Thompson twins can't guard like Dale Ellis because Dale is 6'7'' and plays the 2. OG is a sweet guy you'd love to see across
The point is that you need to access forwards to find a 6'7" defender for Jordan among today's players, while Jordan had plenty of 6'7" starting SG's in his era, and some of them were great defenders (Majerle, Drexler, Lewis, Willie Anderson).
So Jordan had great 6'7" defenders at forward and SG, not just forward like today's players..
Today's starting SG's range between 6'3" and 6'5", with almost no 6'6" SG's and none at 6'7".. Overall, the average SG today is 6'4", while the average SG in 1990 was 6'6"..
You've resorted to making fun of Reggie Theus instead of addressing these points because you can't - I'm simply right on all this stuff because it's historical record, not opinion.. I'm just informing you of the record.
Furthermore, Iguodala is 6'6" and 215... He did well against Lebron, and so did Boris Diaw, Jason Terry, Antawn Jamison, Jae Crowder, and many more.. Lebron gets held in check ALL THE TIME.. That's why he needs so much help.. He's never dominated at Jordan's level (specified in previous post above).
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Stats at 22-23 years old against championship team
Lebron vs 07' Spurs..... 22 on 35%
Amare vs 05' Spurs...... 37 on 55%
Bryant vs 01' Spurs...... 33 on 50%
Lebron vs 08' Celts....... 26 on 35%
Jordan vs 86' Celts........ 44 on 50%
Magic vs 80' Sixers....... FMVP
Fact Check
LeBron won his first MVP in 09 as a 24 year old (he finished 2nd as a 21 year old). FG believes this is bad. Note, MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Curry, Joker were all much older.
Lebron needed 6 seasons to get MVP, while MJ won it in his 3rd healthy season (88').. Bird and Magic also won in their 2nd or 3rd season.
LeDrive also needed an all-star spacer to open things up for him in 09' and transform the team, while MJ won MVP with a lottery cast in 88'.
And he fulfilled his end of the bargain by making the Finals, while Lebron was massively upset by a 1-star team because he was Mr. Butterfingers in the clutch..
(i.e. in addition to the defensive blunder of guarding Courtney Lee instead of Hedo, Lebron had 7 TO's in the 4th quarter of critical Game 4, and became a 12 TO per game player in clutch-time for the series).
Ultimately, you need to access forwards to find a 6'7" defender for Jordan among today's players, while Jordan had plenty of 6'7" SG's in his era, and some of them were great defenders (Majerle, Drexler, Lewis, Willie Anderson).
So Jordan had great 6'7" defenders at forward and SG, not just forward like today's players..
Today's starting SG's range between 6'3" and 6'5", with almost no 6'6" SG's and none at 6'7".. Overall, the average SG today is 6'4", while the average SG in 1990 was 6'6"..
Fact check
MJ with such a great IQ that he couldn't work out 3>2 and then develop his 3 point shot.
Lebron has many seasons or series of shooting threes poorly, while MJ never did when he had today's volumes, or anything above bailout volume.. MJ always shot well when he decided to shoot threes (anything above bailout volume).
Specifically, MJ shot 36.4% in games with 3+ attempts from 85-93', and 39% in playoff series of 3+ attempts (regular line only)... Since he shot 36-39% at today's volumes WITHOUT practice, he would shoot 40% or more WITH practice.
Jordan was about winning, not stats. What about this defense, but also team as a whole, in the video makes you think Jordan would prefer it as easier to defeat as opposed to say...
like how is Jordan's edge on both sides of the ball vs the thunder greater than vs. the teams he faced. Not in terms of how many points he'd get, which is part of it, but winning as a whole. Offense, Defense, all of it. How does adding Jordan to a team today, make that team more of a favorite, since this is a weak era and Lebron is lucky to play in it, how does adding Jordan to a team today, facing that Thunder team, make today's team have an even greater edge than Jordan had in his tougher to win era?
It's amazing how you can always just cherry pick the stats to make one guy look good and one guy look bad, and then act oblivious about how insanely biased you are as if everyone can't see right through it. These cherry picked arguments aren't even worth responding to.
thinking about Len Bias after that old 1990's Reggie Lewis game I saw a bit of. All basketball fans missed out on something that was really special.
Fact check
Well this isn't a fact check to be fair. This is actual information provided by FG, he just misinterpreted it / lied.
SG height never actually reached 6 foot 6. During MJs career the graph ranged between 6 foot 4 and 6 foot 5. Today it is around 6 foot 4. And once again it took a dip in 2021 because that is the year after they started measuring without shoes.
Green line is SG.
AIM. I think we need to put out an ad for someone that is willing to fact check FG. It will be a full time job. Everything will come with a disclaimer.
AI said Mitchell is good at defense. I have no idea. I dont think I much ever saw him play except dunk and score a lot in highlights. If he can't play d, ok, he's out of the Jordan Build.
I'll watch highlights these days. I got the youtube subscription years ago. No commercials. It's a game changer. Every sporting game has 10 min, even like 17 min highlights. It doesn't really work for basketball, you see every shot goes in, not many misses. Football is cool, and baseball you can see every time a hitter recorded something. I read the athletic. Then I have my teams C's, Pats, Sox...and oddly enough I know...the Habs of Montreal. I listen to podcasts of all of them, watch the youtube podcasts more like. You know like "Habs Digest", "Red Sox Now!". Some old broken down pro scout from the 1982 can tell me about the team.
And I like to hate on the Yankees and Leafs. this f in thread and this is years ago, cured me of my Laker hate. I mean I hated those guys, still don't like they won in the bubble to even up all time rings, but if it makes Jordan fans mad...then f it.
I play video games. I don't like commercials. I can't watch a game unless it's a big game, even then I got to figure out how to watch it. Like I used to subscribe to a team and watch most every game, but now it seems that is f'd and good luck figuring out which streaming platform it's on. F it.
I've seen that around finally read it. funny. i use google ai. gives quick info on vertical leaps and height and weight, etc. Maybe missed a few when asked it's opinion on who is top modern defensive wing. But I like it because it's fast, and, for example, when FG said with so much confidence re: Rodman and Finley
.No.. They didn't.. MJ averaged 30-40 on all of them
You simply don't know Jordan's career very well or forgot
No one did "fine" against Jordan unless you consider 33/6/6 on 50% "fine
And then AI tells you Jordan played Finley 11 times, averaged like 25 a game and seemingly shot pretty badly. It doesn't say he shot badly, but 1. it cites one game with the Bulls that he shot badly, 2. Several games were played when he was with the Wizards, where he shot badly in general. 3. FG didn't post his game by game log for that one. He did for Reggie Lewis, which I admit Jordan cooked him good. (and you do have to be careful with AI because AI pointed out just one game with Reggie vs Mike where Reggie had 4 blocks and I ran with it. But, despite just one game I know of with Finley v Mike, I know the scoring average. I know the stats with Wizards. So, pretty sure not gonna get burned here. well, can't. 25 isnt 30-40ppg. It isn't. I guess he is saying with the Bulls he really cooked Finley. I doubt that. He'd post the games. And how'd his average for all games vs Finley get that low? MJ scored with the Wizards. Your telling me he averaged a ton with Bulls and then like 10 with Wiz. Nah. Besides he's merciless to Lebron in his 40's, it was shocking to the forum when he said dont count MJ with Wiz!)
Watching that 1990 Bulls v Cs game a little, and then watching the OKC thunder in that video I posted...nobody in their right mind would say defense was better back than. Jordan would catch the ball easy like 17 feet away, square up vs Lewis, take him to the hole, or shoot over him. Repeat. That OKC defense they are playing now...it's scary. Well orchestrated helter skelter. FG has to be trolling I mean you cannot watch a 1990 game and a OKC 2024 game and...but he posts so much i dont think he is trolling.
And with Rodman, he says "MJ averaged 30-40 on all of them". He wasn't even guarded by Rodman primarily. (That OKC video shows Rodman swatting a Jordan dunk from behind, right in the beginning. But that is one play of course)
These are results for how many minutes did Rodman actually guard Jordan
AI Overview
Dennis Rodman didn't regularly guard Michael Jordan for extended periods; the Pistons usually assigned Joe Dumars for that task, but Rodman did guard Jordan in crucial stretches, especially when Detroit needed defensive shifts, showcasing impressive, short bursts of lockdown defense, often with one-footed blocks, making it intense but not a full-game assignment. While there's no exact minute count, it was sporadic but impactful, with Rodman sometimes shutting MJ down for segments, like in the 1990 ECF, though Jordan still scored heavily.
Key Points:
Primary Defender: Joe Dumars was Detroit's main Jordan stopper.
Rodman's Role: Rodman would switch onto Jordan for defensive possessions, especially in key moments, using his strength, quickness, and length.
Impactful, Not Constant: He could be extremely effective in these short stints, forcing Jordan into tough shots or getting key blocks, but it wasn't his primary job for entire games.
So, I don't know if Jordan did great against Rodman. But FG doesn't really know either. And his statement "MJ averaged 30-40 on all of them" is not only false with respect to Finley, but also false for Rodman, because it is impossible. Rodman wasn't ON Jordan.
Joe Dumars was. AI also says Joe Dumars was his most common defender. He was tough, but he's listed 6'3'', for sure 6'3'' out of shoes.
1990 basketball looks ridiculous if you try to watch it now.
The games today are almost beyond belief to me. The shooting especially.
guess he is saying with the Bulls he really cooked Finley. I doubt that. He'd post the games. And how'd his average for all games vs Finley get that low? MJ scored with the Wizards. Your telling me he averaged a ton with Bulls and then like 10 with Wiz. Nah. Besides he's merciless to Lebron in his 40's, it was shocking to the forum when he said dont count MJ with Wiz!
Well I looked up two games Jordan had v finley when he was with the Wiz and they were so bad that Jordan maybe did average over 30pp vs Finley when he was with the Bulls. Can't say for sure, I don't know how to do the filter like that, but who cares.
he didn't average 30-40 or w/e. And oldness counts against Lebron, should against MJ. Finley was very young vs the championship jordan bulls. So...I say where does the discounting stop!
It's amazing how you can always just cherry pick the stats to make one guy look good and one guy look bad, and then act oblivious about how insanely biased you are as if everyone can't see right through it. These cherry picked arguments aren't even worth responding to.
Are you talking about Lebron's stats vs championship comp at 22 and 23 years old?
He was literally worst-ever, since no one in history shot 35% and 6 TO's per game, except Lebron in the 07' Finals, and then he did it again in the 08' ECSF against the Celtics.. He simply wasn't good enough to consistently perform against championship comp until 2012 - prior to that, he wet the bed in 07', 08', 10' and 11' - his numbers in each of these series are horrific
Contrastingly, Kobe was already dominant and clutch against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old.. Ditto for 22-23 year old Jordan, Amare, Magic and others.. So Lebron has been overrated for a long time.. The 07' Spurs showed that a 22 on 35% player won an apparently very weak East.. Lebron was locked up so much that he needed to form super-teams to have other franchise players take pressure off him
Fact checkWell this isn't a fact check to be fair. This is actual information provided by FG, he just misinterpreted it / lied.SG height never actually reached 6 foot 6. During MJs career the graph ranged between 6 foot 4 and 6 foot 5. Today it is around 6 foot 4. And once again it took a dip in 2021 because that is the year after they started measuring without shoes. Green lin
Your numbers show a 0.5 to 0.8 inch advantage for Jordan's era in SG height, while my numbers are only looking at the STARTERS - that's where all the 6'7" SG's are, and a lot of 6'6" guys.. Today's game has no starting SG's at 6'7" and almost none at 6'6", while any year of the 90's will show 5 or more SG's at 6'7", and 5-10 at 6'6".
So I'm right about Jordan facing taller SG's and also taller players at every position except PG - that's what the data shows - there's been a downward trend in height for some time now.. It's due to the game of BASKETball becoming THREEball.
1990's basketball was about being tall. 2020's basketball is about being good at basketball.
That's why Jordan was a number 3 pick even after going to college a few years.
The number of tall guys drafted early in the 1st round in the 90's who actually sucked at being basketball players is a long list. And yes I know Jordan was drafted in the 80's.
And it was still such a weak era that a 5'3" guy was a starter for 10 years.
It's because they played as if the 3-point line wasn't there
Similarly, if you removed the 3-point line, all 10 players would re-congregate around the rim and paint - no one would want Curry to shoot a 25-foot 2-pointer at 45% over Shaq dunking at 95% or Alex English's mid-range at 50% (plus fouls)...
So today's game would look the same as 1990 if you removed the 3-point line and returned the traveling and carrying strictness to 1990 levels
First 5 minutes on examining the history of isolation plays says it all. "The video analyzes the evolution of offensive strategies, comparing modern isolation tactics to older styles. It features analysis of game footage and statistical trends."
1990's basketball was about being tall. 2020's basketball is about being good at basketball.That's why Jordan was a number 3 pick even after going to college a few years.The number of tall guys drafted early in the 1st round in the 90's who actually sucked at being basketball players is a long list. And yes I know Jordan was drafted in the 80's.And it was still such a weak e
2020's basketball is about dribbling the ball up and jacking a three
That isn't "skilled" or great - kindergarten teams spam threes too, along with junior high teams, HS and college - it's much easier to learn to spam threes (today's game) than develop a great mid-range game (previous eras)..
Today's game allows bricklayers like Westbrook and Giannis to dominate by driving an open paint, whereas previous eras required great mid-range shooting to shoot over packed paints.. Today's game is the beginner format, aka hands-off, spaced-out, open paint, beginner format
Even after a refresher course in all that illegal D rule and dinosaur offense MJ got to play against laughable restrictions and bb theory in the 80's and 90's...man I am back to where I started, that 1. Jordan would have to hit the 3 better. 2. It would be harder.
Still, what's to keep MJ from become SGA and the MVP of the league if he did hit his 3's? I say not much and MJ could win the MVP in a similar, right situation. and if you win one, why not a few?
Even if he did become SGA, SGA isn't on a GOAT path. OKC is a team. He is the leader. But I suspect a few players could replace him and, even though he is the MVP, like I think OKC would figure out how make it work if they had Luka or Giannis or Joker instead of SGA.
SGA on the C's instead of Brown, or if they were traded for each other. The C's are still meh maybe ok in the East, maybe not. OKC remain the big favorites for it all and still a potential history making team.
otoh, if MJ was drafted by the Nets or some other team with disfunction, like SGA if he was on a bad team, he wouldn't stand out too much. Like an all-star and wasted talent.
