Sandwiched between a whale and tight reg 2/5NL

Ship it he has clubs a lot.

So, you put him on clubs, but you don't raise the flop -- just let him see a turn for free?

After flatting flop and tight player flats, when whale ships a club turn, do you fold?

I mean...we've all been there, I think.

Semi-grunch (I saw AF's reponse) -

PRE - if we want to ISO and get it HU against a bad opponent, I think we need to make our raise larger in general, both to push other opponents behind us out of the pot, but also just because the whale is less likely to fold, and we'd prefer to play a bigger pot when we're IP and HU.

FLOP - ugh...I'm already a little uneasy when a tight reg cold calls our 3B on the BTN. That's unsettling, to say the least.

I think facing the whale's almost pot-size donk, it's okay to raise when there's a FDFD, but it's also okay to just call and see what the BTN does. He really SHOULDN'T over-call without some decent amount of equity, and should mostly fold without a hand that beats ours or is a draw to the nuts.

When we raise and the tight reg calls...danger, Will Robinson. Like, all my alarm bells would be going off. At a minimum, I'd expect BTN to have top pair + a draw (assuming it's Ax8c4c and TP+FDFD is available). He might have been set-mining pre with 44 or 88, or decided not to cold 4B with AK/AA, though I'd think AA is more likely to 4B and less likely to slow-play.

I'd say AF is right - I really doubt AQ is likely to be good.

MAYBE he shows up with AJ or some other semi-trashy AX combo at some frequency, and called your raise because he thinks you're bluffing with just a naked draw, or a worse TP + the FDFD, but he'd have to be cold-calling pre with a bunch of suited and unsuited AX combos that would otherwise be easy 4B's or straightforward folds.

I dunno, man. The whale could be punting with a bunch of equity, and BTN could be looking to make a fair catch. I think we can (grudgingly) let this one go.

Now off to read the rest...

Just read the rest of the thread and am a little confused what the actual argument is, given the stack depths (or maybe regardless of them, I'm not certain).

I get Venice's point about not folding once we put in half our stack, but...it's multi-way, not heads up, and BTN would have to be pretty wide for our hand to be best here. When the BTN calls our raise, I think I can get on board with folding to the jam, even after we've inadvisably raised enough to pot-commit ourselves.

I think I get Java's point about not wanting to let either opponent hit their draw, but...no one is "seeing the turn for free". The whale bet 150 into 180. If he checked to us, and we wanted to bet our hand for value and protection, what size would we take? Would it be much bigger than 150?

Even if we would have potted it, when the whale makes it 83% pot and we call, he's not giving himself a good price on his draw, and the BTN really shouldn't be chasing a draw if it isn't to the nuts, even getting 3.2 to 1. If we think they're both drawing to a flush, then they have each other's outs, no?

To answer what I think her questions are:

1. We flat. BTN flats. Whale ships it on a brick turn. We probably call (or re-jam), because if the BTN had a better hand he probably would have raised flop, not over-called, and we often have the whale beat. I'd mostly expect the BTN to fold in that scenario, but I'd be okay if he called with a flush draw.

2. We flat, BTN flats. Whale ships it on a club turn. Yeah, obviously we fold, because even if the whale was bluffing, it seems pretty likely the BTN was on a draw and he's just waiting to call now that he's made his hand.

I think illiterat's question is most salient - are we deliberately turning our hand into a bluff? It's hard to find hands that are going to fold to the raise that would have over-called an 80% pot donk on this board. It may only be some combo-draw like 76cc or 65cc. Like, is the BTN really over-calling with KXcc or QXcc?

So...our raise probably folds out 76cc and 65cc, and maybe folds out five combos of AQ that aren't AcQc. Everything else that would have over-called probably has us beat already, or has a ton of equity and isn't folding yet.

Yes. We expect a tight reg to raise his AK+ on the flop so we can get away for just the flop call.

Obviously we don’t put him on clubs before he acted, and even if he showed us clubs letting a card peel off is fine.

I guess we just disagree. If he flatted pre w/ AA or AK to trap, I don't know why he'd raise now? I mean, if we don't think H should raise, why would/should V? If V has a big hand, he can flat, let whale shove turn, let H get sucked in, and scoop (which was obviously his plan).

My advice to raise flop isn't to "see where I'm at, " it's to get heads up w/ the whale because I don't want to give V a "free" turn. However, once V flats, now we know we might be in trouble. As H stated, he felt he was crushed. When that's the case, just sigh-fold the turn.

I’m surprised people are putting the tight reg on broadway clubs when he flats the $350.. this is literally AK/AA/88 and at worse AQcc all day.

I just can’t play that aggressive with AQ and I don’t mind folding. Yesterday I faced a tight open and a 3bet, folded AQ in the hijack, button 4Bet and aces beat jacks.

It’s a strange game in that most of time, nobody has anything. But sometimes everyone is loaded and strong. You could shove and sometimes you will win, but I don’t think that’s the best play.

Everyone folds to the button and AQ is a monster, but middle position I would call pre-flop and see what develops. When you 3bet it’s important to realize that it takes a stronger hand to call, than it does to raise, so villains probably don’t have air.

I think I would have tiptoed instead of charging ahead, tried to pot control & get to showdown unless I turned a queen. I think your read caused you to overplay a bottom of range hand & now you’re in a tough spot. Poker is all about trying not to put yourself in tough spots.

If you call, it seems a little like you’re the one on tilt ready to punt and go home.

Just read the comments and figure that tight reg had to be a little giddy. He didn’t have to do anything and two players with weak aces gave him their stacks.