Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!
Yaginuma vs Carroll. Carroll enters final table with 10 to 1 chip lead, Yaginuma gets $1 million dollar bonus from Club
My take:
1. would have been stupid not to do it (take the extra money), they weren’t harming any other player, just taking money from the house
2. wsop „decision“ is fine, saves face all around
3. should have done it smarter though
4. hopefully wsop goes with the times soon, allows deals
This is the first legitimate point on this side. Someone somewhere mentioned that they were friends, and I don't know if that's true. But if you already know ahead of time that you and your friend will chop 1 mil if it gets HU, and that this might not be true otherwise, it could affect things earlier in the event. This might actually be an ethical issue.However, if you were
One hand seems to rule out collusion pre HU.
Carroll has something like A9 suited vs A4 suited at risk. All in preflop. If they were colluding getting all in pre when dominated seems a bad idea. IIRC made wheel on river to suck out and stay alive. But pretty much anti collusive imo.
They can’t prove anything. Most of us would’ve done the same as a **** you to the hefty rake
Actually WSOP doesn’t have to prove anything if the rules are upheld in court as written:
“ Anyone found to have engaged in or attempted to engage in any act that WSOP officials believe in their sole and absolute discretion compromises or could compromise the competitive integrity of the WSOP will be subject to
sanctions imposed by Host Properties. The nature and extent of the sanctions imposed shall be in the sole and absolute discretion of Host Properties and may include, but shall not be limited to, the following:
1. FORFEITURE OF CHIPS
2. FORFEITURE OF PRIZE MONEY
3. EJECTION FROM AN EVENT OR THE ENTIRE WSOP TOURNAMENT
4. LOSS OF PRIVILEGE TO PARTICIPATE IN FUTURE WSOP EVENTS
5. EXCLUSION FROM ENTERING THE PREMISES OF CASINO AND/OR ALL DESIGNATED AFFILIATES
OF HOST PROPERTIES.” (Emphasis added)
So pretty clear they don’t need to prove anything.
Outcome is fair enough imo but I'm interested to see how they go about preventing a third party offering promotions on their events which seems to have caused this chain of events. Until that is solved this can and probably will happen again.
I'm sure the wheels are in motion to get ClubWptGold kicked out of Nevada and probably already were pre promotion. You have an unlicensed/unregulated sweepstakes site adding prizepool money to a regulated gaming entity. Not to mention taking market share from them online lol. Sweeps sites have already been getting kicked out of states year after year so it really isn't big news. Everyone acting like Gold is this golden goose is hilarious as well. They have one of the highest cash game rake structures in the industry with one of the worst software releases I've ever seen. They are no better than WSOP imo. They are good at marketing though
Actually WSOP doesn’t have to prove anything if the rules are upheld in court as written:“ Anyone found to have engaged in or attempted to engage in any act that WSOP officials believe in their sole and absolute discretion compromises or could compromise the competitive integrity of the WSOP will be subject tosanctions imposed by Host Properties. The nature and extent of the sa
They still might have to. Id be interested to hear Bob Narcesian's take. Just because they put something in their rules doesn't mean gaming would side with them.
Collusion is when 2 participants act to negatively impact a 3rd party, in this case the rest of the field or at least other players at the same table. But it was heads up already so there is no case for collusion, each participant can play their cards how they want at that point. All one player has to say is “I swear I thought he had Aces or Kings every hand what could I do”?
They don’t lose under the collusion rule. They could lose under the brand damage rule.
As to not paying these two, which we now no is not happening, WSOP certainly can forfeit their prize money. It would have to be distributed some way probably, but not necessarily to Carroll and Yagi.
Now why didn’t WSOP do this? Easy, dragging it out, forcing forfeiture, possible lawsuit, etc only extend things and likely increases brand damage. Since it appears no other participant was damaged, WSOP would only be damaging their brand for no gain since money gets distributed anyway.
Meh they could still take the 5th and then have a bunch of experts testify as to how much variance is in the heads up sit and go sample size 1… and theorizing about how “exploits” were used…as for the unilateral attorney fees that prob just means the contingency fee is higher though prob can be challenged as players kinda have an unequal bargaining position for entering the con
This would be a civil case not a criminal one. That leads to a HUGE difference. If you take 5th in criminal case, it cannot be held against you and no inference can be made. In a civil case, taking the 5th can be used in drawing an inference. That is, in civil case jury can decide that your taking the 5th indicates liability.
That is how our legal system works, one hires lawyers to advocate on one’s behalf…though if the WSOP does DQ them I would guess it would eat most of their extra profit from the WSOP to get it back and def losing on the EV since they lose in court a non zero amount t of time.
You need to look into civil case rules surrounding the 5th. There is a reason criminal cases are nearly always completed before any civil case proceeds.
The most shocking part of this whole thing is that apparently some people actually think that Joe Stapleton is good at commentating?
It is disgraceful, but it is not shocking. Some people think Norman Chad is good at commentating.
I'm sure the wheels are in motion to get ClubWptGold kicked out of Nevada and probably already were pre promotion. You have an unlicensed/unregulated sweepstakes site adding prizepool money to a regulated gaming entity. Not to mention taking market share from them online lol. Sweeps sites have already been getting kicked out of states year after year so it really isn't big news
1. You never could play ClubWPTGold in Nevada.
2. ClubWPTGold did not add money to the prize pool; their money only gets paid if a golden ticket holder wins a WSOP event, and neither the WSOP, Caesars, nor NSUS (parent of GGPoker) are a party to that transaction.
Man... how will the players survive without a bracelet and recognition 😉
Question is: Does WSOP's ruling give WPT an out?
I think it's there if WPT pursues it. Time will tell.
1. You never could play ClubWPTGold in Nevada.
2. ClubWPTGold did not add money to the prize pool; their money only gets paid if a golden ticket holder wins a WSOP event, and neither the WSOP, Caesars, nor NSUS (parent of GGPoker) are a party to that transaction.
several people stream from Nevada lol, and I know what the promo was. I didn't feel like I needed to type that part out
literally no where in their terms does it say you can't play from Nevada
I'm sure the wheels are in motion to get ClubWptGold kicked out of Nevada and probably already were pre promotion. You have an unlicensed/unregulated sweepstakes site adding prizepool money to a regulated gaming entity. Not to mention taking market share from them online lol. Sweeps sites have already been getting kicked out of states year after year so it really isn't big news
Who wouod actually put real money on their site knowing how shady this whole thing was, not to mention the tax issues with sweepstakes, they probably will have massive cheating on website like ACR.
Wonder what WPT will pay, with no official winner? 500,000? Maybe zero for looking better and saving a dime.
100,000 was the expected WPT bonus value when going HU.
WPT already announced they were paying. Have not heard they changed mind. Probably already paid.
The next interesting drama twist would be if one of these two screw the other and don’t divvy up $ as agreed. Ala Jamie Gold.
If I was Carroll, would have demanded at least a total cut of $1.8 mil, 1st place and half the bonus, because I could get $1.3mil almost guaranteed. The fun would be watching them fight it out.
Given their prior winnings and assuming CET lifetime bans, I wonder if either now considers the deal -EV.
only states excluded so far copied directly from the terms:
i. Idaho
ii. Michigan
iii . Montana
iv. Washington
Weird they are "splitting" the prize money. Not sure what basis they have to do that.
No bracelet is whatever, probably just did the most they thought they could get away with.
The $2.3mil the WSOP was hold was always going to be paid out. It was only the to who. This lets WSOP uphold game integrity and they had no incentive to not pay. Now they hope it just goes away.
WPT already announced they were paying. Have not heard they changed mind. Probably already paid.The next interesting drama twist would be if one of these two screw the other and don’t divvy up $ as agreed. Ala Jamie Gold.If I was Carroll, would have demanded at least a total cut of $1.8 mil, 1st place and half the bonus, because I could get $1.3mil almost guaranteed. The fun wo
Not sure how well they knew each other- I'd ask for the same but it's also hard to trust someone to pay you 800k with no record of anything.
The bug in the corner knew they rigged the ending. But even if they were innocent there is way that the players could prove that they were.
Transaction might not have taken place yet, might be in bitcoin and/or cash etc etc
Now you are suggesting tax fraud. With this publicity I doubt they want to start down that road.
This seems to be a good decision by WSOP, especially if it includes the lifetime ban. This whole incident will be a cautionary tale for everyone going forward.
Carroll is going to feel the burn from this for a long time. He didn't win his first bracelet. He got banned(?). Crap went sideway fast. Definitely -EV in hindsight.
Host properties can ban. So likely both can ban but given terms of the sale, for several years at least a CET ban is also a WSOP ban.
For the life of me I have no idea why people have their panties in such a twist over this, except maybe WPT Club Gold. Final table deals happen all the time. It’s their ****ing money. Sometimes, lore has it, people value bracelets more than the money and that changes their monetary incentives. Def agree wsop should facilitate chops but have a rule that [1?]% of the prize poo
Your WSOP solution doesn’t work in this case. Carroll had to lose so witholding 1% and bracelet and playing just for those, he still has to dump.
well im not certain but thats how i read it (because the 1m is a bonus for the "winner" and they declared that there was no "winner")
can anyone confirm that the 1M bonus is paid or not?
So unless WPT now goes back on their word, which would now look REALLY bad, the golden ticket is getting paid.
My take:
1. would have been stupid not to do it (take the extra money), they weren’t harming any other player, just taking money from the house
2. wsop „decision“ is fine, saves face all around
3. should have done it smarter though
4. hopefully wsop goes with the times soon, allows deals
There was no deal possible or at least practicable. Yagi had to win. If they chop prize money but play for bracelet he loses and doesn’t get extra mil.
If they agree to chop and give bracelet to Yagi, would WPT pay. They would likely have way to get out of paying and now it would not even look bad on them.
So whether WSOP allows deals I don’t think there was a legit deal deal to be made.
Yaginuma is the second winner of the seven-figure jackpot, an award that will be paid out, PokerNews confirmed with Doug Polk, an ambassador for ClubWPT Gold. The poker site will honor Yaginuma at a ceremony Friday evening at Ole Red, a bar on the Las Vegas Strip, steps away from the WSOP.
Already handed out? 
...Doug said...
