Collusion at Final Table of Millionaire Maker!
Yaginuma vs Carroll. Carroll enters final table with 10 to 1 chip lead, Yaginuma gets $1 million dollar bonus from Club
Unfortunately for the players, those rules I read that Knish posted seem to give the WSOP very broad discretion re: rules and regulations surrounding the ‘integrity’ of the game and protecting their brand.
VERY broad discretion from what I read, and if you take them to court and lose, you also agree to pay their fees, etc. If they make an example out of these two guys, it's going to certainly make others in the future think twice about their actions and the risks associated with them.
I don't know that they need to prove anything. The way their agreement is written, they have sole discretion to determine what is in violation essentially, and their decisions are final.
I'm not an attorney, so no idea if the wording of that would hold up in a court of law, but if the two guys are disqualified and have to sue the WSOP to get their winnings and lose, the agreement also stipulates they would then be paying the fees the WSOP expended in fighting the legal battle.
At the end of the day, I think nothing will change with the payouts and top 2 finishers unless there’s like some confession about collusion prior to the final 2 playing. It’s just a PR play by the WSOP.
I just saw Doug’s video and didn’t think it was as black and white since the collusion could’ve started before heads up play (which i saw as the only issue).
The party that was really damaged (WPT) doesn’t seem to care.
But the players could’ve done a better job at hiding their intentions given the stakes.
They made it too blatant.
Unfortunately for the players, those rules I read that Knish posted seem to give the WSOP very broad discretion re: rules and regulations surrounding the ‘integrity’ of the game and protecting their brand.
Right, the same broad discretion “integrity” rule used against Tamayo and his real-time laptop solver team on the rail. Oh wait, never mind. And that wasn’t a heads up situation! It would be quite ridiculous for WSOP to suddenly act all heavy-handed on what essentially is a heads up chop deal.
This obviously hurts WSOP. Why would an audience want to watch their show if collusion is okay and the "drama" is all made up? I'd be pissed as a viewer. Which could lead to lower ratings next time.
If they colluded, don't pay them a dime. I'm sure they'll get their money though - cheaters always do these days.
If this is OK, then 1 and 2 place in the WSOP are nearly the same in the future. Chop, bracelet maybe $100,000. GG. Not how I remember the legendary fights.
At the end of the day, I think nothing will change with the payouts and top 2 finishers unless there’s like some confession about collusion prior to the final 2 playing. It’s just a PR play by the WSOP.I just saw Doug’s video and didn’t think it was as black and white since the collusion could’ve started before heads up play (which i saw as the only issue).The party that was
This is my last post. WPT ran a promotion and benefit from this. They weren't harmed, WSOP is harming themselves.We are talking about this thanks to WPT's advertising budget.
For a while I thought you all were trolling, but now I think most are hopeless. It's interesting to learn WSOP rules allow them to not pay players for any reason at their discretion.
Be fun if WSOP refuses to pay and finds out the Nevada Gaming Commission which also has extremely broad for the good of the game authority and is controlled by people that HATE them rules they are committing fraud.. It isn't a free roll for WSOP but one rigged against them and getting formally found fraudulent could cost a lot more than just paying and writing a new rule for next year. And for all whining about collusion they let husband and wife play in the same tournament, they do not require players tell the table if they have pieces of other players at the table. They have no problem with pros colluding.
Be fun if WSOP refuses to pay and finds out the Nevada Gaming Commission which also has extremely broad for the good of the game authority and is controlled by people that HATE them rules they are committing fraud.. It isn't a free roll for WSOP but one rigged against them and getting formally found fraudulent could cost a lot more than just paying and writing a new rule for ne
This is the one of the few non-insulting takes on just paying the players I've seen, well done. You can articulate this without blanketly stating those who want to see accountability are simply jealous haters.
People have been saying that if WSOP decides to not pay them and recognize the bracelet that they players have a slam dunk appeal.
Doesn’t seem like it to me, but depends from what angle they are making the appeal based on.
They will be deposed. If they say they did not collude but they did then that is lying under oath which is a crime. Sure it would be difficult to have them charged with that and convict but that’s a door that hasn’t been mentioned here I don’t think.
I don’t think they can win with the “we rigged it so Yagi would win but it’s heads up, who cares” appeal.
They can’t prove anything. Most of us would’ve done the same as a **** you to the hefty rake
If they withhold money and it is challenged the standard is “more than likely” not proof beyond a reasonable debt. And in process of challenging, assuming they did rig the end, they will have to lie under oath which is a felony.
Not one person on this forum has suggested the ending wasn’t rigged. Only that is was ok since no one was impacted. And this is a forum where people thought Robbie Jade Lew had a vibrating butt plug telling her to call. My gut tells me they would be able to meet the “more than likely”.
I highly doubt I would have done the same and certainly any butthurt over rake wouldn’t be a factor at all. You don’t play games with a casino with deep pockets who perma banned someone for taking free sandwiches out of Kings Lounge. Have to also figure wsop/wpt might not go down lightly. Just take the spin of $1500 into 1.3M and bracelet and move onto the next.
Collusion is when 2 participants act to negatively impact a 3rd party, in this case the rest of the field or at least other players at the same table. But it was heads up already so there is no case for collusion, each participant can play their cards how they want at that point. All one player has to say is “I swear I thought he had Aces or Kings every hand what could I do”?
Also, this isn’t WSOP’s money in the prize pool, it is the players money which WSOP is essentially holding in escrow (minus fees). Good luck in court with not paying out their own money.
Also, this is just a matter of perspective. Imagine this scenario. Heads-up, one player has terminal cancer, months to live, visibly frail, has always dreamed of a bracelet. Other player just wants the money, doesn’t really care about the bracelet. He essentially dumps so the terminal cancer player gets a bracelet. You all would be claiming he is a hero, how great it is the terminal cancer player got a bracelet before succumbing.
Collusion is when 2 participants act to negatively impact a 3rd party, in this case the rest of the field or at least other players at the same table. But it was heads up already so there is no case for collusion, each participant can play their cards how they want at that point. All one player has to say is “I swear I thought he had Aces or Kings every hand what could I do”?
Most of us would checkraise our deceased grandmother though
Collusion is when 2 participants act to negatively impact a 3rd party, in this case the rest of the field or at least other players at the same table. But it was heads up already so there is no case for collusion, each participant can play their cards how they want at that point. All one player has to say is “I swear I thought he had Aces or Kings every hand what could I do”?
So why the charade in the first place then? If it doesn't matter just play your cards face up and the guy that's supposed to lose just puts a big bet in, then folds to a raise. It could all be done in a few hands without all the obvious shenanigans. What's the difference?
Or maybe they did what they did because they knew it was shady, and they shouldn't be doing it. Ya think?
Collusion is when 2 participants act to negatively impact a 3rd party, in this case the rest of the field or at least other players at the same table. But it was heads up already so there is no case for collusion, each participant can play their cards how they want at that point. All one player has to say is “I swear I thought he had Aces or Kings every hand what could I do”?
No one has suggested that wsop would just keep the money. It would quite certainly be distributed amongst the other participants one way or another.
“Heads up, no one was impacted”
The following parties could all possibly make a case that they were impacted:
1) WSOP
2) WPT
3) CET
4) PokerGO
5) CBS Sports
Scotch is not in here praising people as heros or villains and crying for integrity. He has no dog in the fight, he’s just in here looking at this situation and using his unbiased well serviced brain to accurately portray where everything is at.
This obviously hurts WSOP. Why would an audience want to watch their show if collusion is okay and the "drama" is all made up? I'd be pissed as a viewer. Which could lead to lower ratings next time.
If they colluded, don't pay them a dime. I'm sure they'll get their money though - cheaters always do these days.
Why should the players who put up the money for the prize pool and pay the rake care in the slightest about the "show", viewers, or ratings?
WPT is loving this, there is no victim, and if WSOP was as good as most other poker tours they would facilitate chops and all this would be moot anyways.
So why the charade in the first place then? If it doesn't matter just play your cards face up and the guy that's supposed to lose just puts a big bet in, then folds to a raise. It could all be done in a few hands without all the obvious shenanigans. What's the difference?Or maybe they did what they did because they knew it was shady, and they shouldn't be doing it. Ya thin
Why deal any cards at all when heads up? The players could just announce who won. Apparently that's nobody else's business, as I have come to read here.
Why should the players who put up the money for the prize pool and pay the rake care in the slightest about the "show", viewers, or ratings?
WPT is loving this, there is no victim, and if WSOP was as good as most other poker tours they would facilitate chops and all this would be moot anyways.
No the issue of facilitating chops wouldn’t have been in play here as you still have to play for the bracelet.
Sorry to break it to you but assuming the table is few medium stacks, 1 giant stack, a the rest very short stacks happens now as the very short stacks lower the willingness of the medium stacks to play aggressively. It can be very +ev for the giant stack to keep the short stacks around to better bully the medium stacks.
EDIT
NM, I see that you are talking about the current situation, not with ClubWPTGold's occasion-of-sin promotion.
VERY broad discretion from what I read, and if you take them to court and lose, you also agree to pay their fees, etc. If they make an example out of these two guys, it's going to certainly make others in the future think twice about their actions and the risks associated with them.
IANAL, but apparently you are not a lawyer.
Their agreement has this in the writing:
Participant agrees that if Participant files a lawsuit against Casino or any other
individual or entity, involving these Official Tournament Rules or related to Participant’s removal from one or more Events,
but Participant does not prevail against each defendant, Participant shall pay each prevailing defendant the costs, expenses,
and reasonable attorney’s fees, it/he/she incurred in defending Participant’s lawsuit.
If they withhold money and it is challenged the standard is “more than likely” not proof beyond a reasonable debt. And in process of challenging, assuming they did rig the end, they will have to lie under oath which is a felony.Not one person on this forum has suggested the ending wasn’t rigged. Only that is was ok since no one was impacted. And this is a forum where people tho
Meh they could still take the 5th and then have a bunch of experts testify as to how much variance is in the heads up sit and go sample size 1… and theorizing about how “exploits” were used…as for the unilateral attorney fees that prob just means the contingency fee is higher though prob can be challenged as players kinda have an unequal bargaining position for entering the contract.
Meh they could still take the 5th and then have a bunch of experts testify as to how much variance is in the heads up sit and go sample size 1… and theorizing about how “exploits” were used…as for the unilateral attorney fees that prob just means the contingency fee is higher though prob can be challenged as players kinda have an unequal bargaining position for entering the con
Lol so they are going to challenge to get their money without saying a word
That is how our legal system works, one hires lawyers to advocate on one’s behalf…though if the WSOP does DQ them I would guess it would eat most of their extra profit from the WSOP to get it back and def losing on the EV since they lose in court a non zero amount t of time.
