** World Cup 2026 - USA, Canada, Mexico Thread **
Saw no thread was active yet while it starts tomorrow so I'd gave it a go
No real time for an extensive write-up but lets
How the hell did you watch the Argentina games and think anything other than "Messi carried this team to the final?" He was directly responsible for the comeback against England. Assisted on both goals. Directly responsible for the Egypt comeback. I mean do they even beat Cape Verde without him?
You call it "white flag waving England" but they tried the same exact strategy vs Mexico, with one less player even, and Mexico never looked like scoring.
What was the difference? Could it be Lionel Messi, the best on-ball creator ever? You think he made a difference in that?
We've seen what an Alvarez-led team can do vs a good defensive team. Arsenal kept him pretty quiet over 2 legs, and he only scored from a soft penalty that was given. I like Alvarez but there are levels to this. He is not Messi, even 39-year-old diminished Messi, who draws 3 defenders to him every time he touches the ball.
It's not doable because most teams don't have Messi. We have a 20-year sample showing us that Messi isn't ****ing normal.
Lautaro is a pure #9, not a wide player. I ask again, does Lautaro get into France's XI, over Mbappe? No. Does he start over Kane? Once again, no chance. You could maybe argue he starts over Oyarzabal, but striker is one of Spain's weakest positions, and someone has to do it.
Don't compare him to wingers. You should know better than that.
Also, out of those 3 teams they only faced England. If they faced Spain or France earlier and got knocked out we wouldnt be having this discussion at all.
Huh? They faced both England and Spain obviously. They beat England and lost to Spain. Among the top 4 teams, they only didn't play France.
Would France have beaten Argentina? Probably, but don't forget that Spain made France look just as bad as they did to Argentina. Mbappe, Dembele, and Olise couldn't do squat without the ball either.
I have literally already debunked this.
Argentina's 2026 run to the final was not any easier than Croatia 2018, Italy 2006, and especially not Germany 2002. All of these teams had comparable, or even easier runs.
I repeat, Germany's run in 2002 was Paraguay, USA, and Korea.
The comparison wasn't Argentina vs Spain. Obviously, Spain had a tougher run to the final. My point was that Argentina's run wasn't even historically soft because this kind of thing happens frequently.
Cool, your GOAT also had 1 goal in 10 World Cup knockout games, with his lone goal being a penalty.
The best game Portugal played in this entire time was a 6-1 win over Switzerland, a game in which Cristiano started on the bench.
If Portugal had Lionel Messi or Diego Maradona instead of Penaldo, they would have reached a World Cup final by now.
1 Messi
2 Maradona
3 Pele
4 Cruyff
5 Penaldo
The gaps are there intentionally. I have Messi as clear #1. Maradona/Pele is more debatable. My intuition is that peak Maradona is a better footballer, rivalling peak Messi, but his overall career was shorter.
Cristiano is at best 4 or 5.
1 Messi
2 Maradona
2 Pele
2 Cruyff
5 Penaldo
The gaps are there intentionally. I have Messi as clear #1. Maradona/Pele is more debatable. My intuition is that peak Maradona is a better footballer, rivalling peak Messi, but his overall career was shorter.
Cristiano is at best 4 or 5.
This is more like it imo. I do agree Messi is the clear #1.
Messi nuthuggers are sensitive when it comes to meanigful sample sizes, it's not Ronaldos fault if the somatropin wore off
After making FIFA super rich after that WC with the increased games and greater attendances - have to assume this world cup FIFA made 10x what they would have made on any previous WC
You call it "white flag waving England" but they tried the same exact strategy vs Mexico, with one less player even, and Mexico never looked like scoring.
What was the difference? Could it be Lionel Messi, the best on-ball creator ever? You think he made a difference in that?
The difference was in the 2nd half Messi just moved out to the wing and no England player put any pressure on him and he just kept on hooking in those crosses from out wide.
1 Messi
2 Maradona
3 Pele
4 Cruyff
5 Penaldo
The gaps are there intentionally. I have Messi as clear #1. Maradona/Pele is more debatable. My intuition is that peak Maradona is a better footballer, rivalling peak Messi, but his overall career was shorter.
Cristiano is at best 4 or 5.
Beckenbauer ahead of Penaldo, btw.
How the hell did you watch the Argentina games and think anything other than "Messi carried this team to the final?" He was directly responsible for the comeback against England. Assisted on both goals. Directly responsible for the Egypt comeback. I mean do they even beat Cape Verde without him?
I mean we are talking in circles here. He was important vs outside top10 ranked teams, I dont think thats worthy of "carrying a team to the final" because in my view that would have to include bigger opponents, if others think its unfair to take that into account thats fine by me, I believe you show your greatness against other greats and not the teams they drew. Therefore I believe the favorable draw had a bigger impact of them reaching the final than messi. Specifically this extreme walking messi, not the ballon d'or sweeping messi (who also walked a lot but was way more active than hes now).
And cmon even without messi argentina has a better player on every position than cabo verde and maybe 10/11 vs egypt & switzerland.
It's not doable because most teams don't have Messi. We have a 20-year sample showing us that Messi isn't ****ing normal.
If its doable with messi, how come they only played 30 minutes of decent football all tournament? And not versus the best of teams I'd say although there have been worse draws. In this tournament surely argentina had the most favorable draw out of all the bigger countries no?
I agree he was out of his world to an absolute insane degree, but we cannot compare the messi of today with his prime. If it were really true he was still one of the best around wouldnt he play a top team instead of inter miami?
But we can disagree on his current level or wc contribution, its fine, it would be worse if everone thought the same thing. I do really hope in 4 years time you'll see the gem that is nico paz. He carried Como to a #4 place CL spot last season :p 3rd in goal involvements after #1 lautaro & #2 thuram. He'll become a phenomenal midfielder I believe. And for football joy sake I wished we seen him this WC instead of paredes and de paul. Maybe then argentina would have been less of an eye sore.
If its doable with messi, how come they only played 30 minutes of decent football all tournament? And not versus the best of teams I'd say although there have been worse draws. In this tournament surely argentina had the most favorable draw out of all the bigger countries no?
This is a wild exaggeration though. They scored 19 goals and conceded 8.
19 goals would have been the most goals out of any team, until France and England scored a total of 10 goals in a game in which neither team played any defense. That put them both at 20 goals.
Just because their path was easier than Spain or England, their goals don't count anymore or something? You can only play what's in front of you.
I agree he was out of his world to an absolute insane degree, but we cannot compare the messi of today with his prime.
And no one is?
If you agree that Messi was still playing at a high level, then there is no disagreement.
If it were really true he was still one of the best around wouldnt he play a top team instead of inter miami?
He's 39 and has won everything possible. Him choosing to play in MLS does not mean that's his highest level possible. I hope that's obvious?
He was ass in Ligue 1, i had to watch this bum every week for two years. MLS sounds about right.
Without Neymar and Di Maria being huge fanboys i doubt he scores ten.
Never said he is the only one becoming worse with old age, of course they all do.
But in all honesty, do you think he now could dominate la liga & CL but chooses inter miami? Because looking at the whole picture I think barca would rather play Yamal than Messi. Football is also played when you're not on the ball. If Yamal would have walked around the entire match besides when on the ball you would see Spain struggle too. Argentina chooses to cater their squad to Messi, which is a net asset when he is on the ball but a net detriment when he isnt. Which is most of the time. He was never tracking back like Luis diaz but you cant compare him scoring goals vs egypt & cabo verde now to scoring hatticks against Real Madrid in the past. Its a completely different level, so we do disagree.
Numbers dont lie*Tweet doesnt quote but its the ronaldo 41 QF+ goals vs Messi 16 in CL...
Cool, your GOAT also had 1 goal in 10 World Cup knockout games, with his lone goal being a penalty.
But Mbappe already has 3 more World cup knockout goals than Messi, also more (double) in finals, so is he even GOATier?
Basically numbers dont lie but anyone can pick the numbers they like for their narrative?
One chooses world cup for messi (or mbappe), the other champions league for ronaldo.
Sounds like its a bit subjective after all
But in all honesty, do you think he now could dominate la liga & CL but chooses inter miami?
Absolutely. If you load-managed him and limited his minutes and games, Messi would 100% still be good in La Liga and CL. What suggests otherwise?
He's 39 and has won everything possible. Why put his body through the grind of a full European season?
Sure, but that's not the argument I'm making. Yamal can run for 90 minutes for 50 games a year and Messi can't. So of course Barcelona would rather have Lamine Yamal.
But in short bursts, against low blocks, I'd 100% have Messi. He's still a better passer, finisher, has superior technique and IQ, etc...
But Mbappe already has 3 more World cup knockout goals than Messi, also more (double) in finals, so is he even GOATier?
As far as World Cup legacies, yes, Mbappe is up there with Messi.
But obviously his club legacy has major holes at this point (never won CL with PSG, PSG wins without him, Real Madrid also can't win with him). He also has 0 Balon d'Ors and isn't guaranteed to win any in the future. Gotta look at the whole picture.
Messi has no such holes anywhere in his resume. If you want titles, he's won everything. Statistically, he towers above everyone in G/A per 90 and is by far the biggest xG overachiever since the concept of xG was created. By eye test he's also a level above everyone in his ability to dribble past players and create chances. There aren't any criteria you could think of where he's not the best, or near the very top.
