Live $1/$2 — ATs facing a turn shove in a three-way pot
Saturday night at a casino.
Hero starts the hand with $250 on the BTN holding ATs. UTG+3 and CO both have approximately $400. I had no particularly strong reads on either player.
UTG+3 raises to $10. CO calls and Hero calls from the BTN. The blinds fold.
Pot: approximately $33
Flop: T-7-4r
UTG+3 bets $25. CO calls and Hero calls with top pair.
Pot: approximately $108
Turn: 5
UTG+3 bets $70. CO then moves all-in for approximately $365 total.
Hero has around $215 remaining, with the original raiser still behind and covering Hero.
What should Hero do?
My thinking on the flop was that, although I had top pair, this was still a three-way pot. The original raiser could have overpairs such as JJ+, and the CO had also called the flop bet, so I did not want to build a large pot with one pair.
At the same time, I realise that at live $1/$2 some players can seriously overvalue hands such as weaker top pairs, middle pairs or draws. However, I have also seen players become too attached to one-pair hands against loose or aggressive opponents and end up calling off far too light and lose.
15 Replies
How long have you been at the table? Does UTG + 3 have a limping range? Even if you've only been at the table for an orbit 1/2 players usually have some pretty obvious huge leaks that you can take advantage of. So it's important to pay attention to what your opponents are doing
If you fold now I think it's played perfectly. Readless I'm defaulting to population tendencies which is that people play too passive generally. So I'm assuming UTG +3 has a limping range and his opening range is overweighted towards overpairs. Call Flop good. Turn raises are very nutted at lowstakes so when CO jams over UTG +3 sizeable turn bet I assume he always has 2p+
Fold. There's a certain protection multiway pots offer you; nobody really bluffs. The risk is too high contending with multiple opponents, one of whom could always be trapping. Not to mention this was a turn jam which is incredibly strong. The straight got there, or he flopped it and is just ready to get it in now.
Also generally speaking you should probably stick to a 3bet/fold strat at these stakes. UTG+3 is what, just MP+1? His range isnt necessarily all that strong. All we want to be doing is isolating players in position at every opportunity at these stakes. I can get behind flatting suited aces if it was a family pot or close to it just to cooler the table, but 3 way? I'd rather just steal dead money, or flop TPTK like this against a much weaker 3bet calling range.
Trivial fold OTT.
I prefer to 3bet preflop. 3betting here is a defensive play to get calls when you have better hands. It also forces both Vs to define their hands while hero goes to the flop uncapped in position. It hopefully folds out one V so hero can get it heads up in position to make a cbet semibluff on the flop. It’s an easy fold to a 4bet.
AP, bet the flop with tptk. Fold to the turn bet.
Grunch: At first I read this as 3-bet pot, instead of 3-way, and was wondering why you'd have ATs in a 3-bet pot. Reading the HH, I actually could see a 3-bet over an MP open and CO call, but I prefer the call OTB to use you position.
Flop is fine. V1 could be c-betting with almost anything, and CO call doesn't narrow his range a ton, though he almost certainly at least has a pair. A call with TPTK in position is fine, and a raise with just that would be a major overplay.
Turn is a trivial fold. V1 isn't double-barreling air into 2 Vs very often, and CO is almost never shoving over it with you yet to act with anything you beat.
Even if this is your first hand at the table, you have to have some sort of reads on your Vs. Your reads might be based on only the most superficial, racist, classist, ageist, or misogynist reasons, but if that's all you have, go with it until proven otherwise.
Based on BU, playing unknowns, I'm not going to 3B but I'm definitely calling.
Same on flop, I'm calling, not raising.
Turn I was considering a possible call only until the CO shoved. At worst he's got OESD, but that is only a hope and a prayer.
Often the UTG3 player will have given you a strong signal that he's upset with the big raise. Sometimes they will already be ready to muck. You have to at least check that out before you make a bold choice to shove.
I can't imagine you're ahead of them both and you have slim pickings to improve. Fold.
Grunch: At first I read this as 3-bet pot, instead of 3-way, and was wondering why you'd have ATs in a 3-bet pot. Reading the HH, I actually could see a 3-bet over an MP open and CO call, but I prefer the call OTB to use you position.Flop is fine. V1 could be c-betting with almost anything, and CO call doesn't narrow his range a ton, though he almost certainly at least has a
Hero folded, and UTG+3 folded as well. CO showed 96, so he had absolutely nothing.
This Asian guy was very loose-aggressive and showed the same kind of aggression in a few later hands as well, also he mentioned other players range sometimes, so gave me the idea he at least try to have a read on other players.
One thing I have noticed at live $1/$2 is that players like this can sometimes win huge pots with hands as weak as middle pair, because they put so much pressure on other players. That makes me wonder whether I should adjust and value my one-pair hands differently against them.
At the same time, I have also seen tighter players lose a lot of money by getting stubborn against these loose-aggressive players with hands like middle pair or top pair with a bad kicker. So I am sometimes unsure whether I am being too nitty in these spots or whether folding is still correct without stronger reads.
That's using retroactive reads. If you'd called V a LAG Asian in the OP, I might reconsider. But even then, I'd need near maniac reads to call a shove from a guy who was facing a double barrel from the opener and a flop caller yet to act. If this were HU and you'd been the opener and had checked a street, I might call from an Asian who gave off aggro vibes, but even then, probably not the first time it happened.
That's an open ended straight draw and possible flush draws as well - can't tell since you didn't specify suits - so its not 'absolutely nothing'.
In a no-read situation this is the easiest fold in the world. A small fraction of the time it turns out you had the best hand which is annoying but it happens. In fact you may not have had the best hand anyway since UTG+3 could have folded an overpair.
That's using retroactive reads. If you'd called V a LAG Asian in the OP, I might reconsider. But even then, I'd need near maniac reads to call a shove from a guy who was facing a double barrel from the opener and a flop caller yet to act. If this were HU and you'd been the opener and had checked a street, I might call from an Asian who gave off aggro vibes, but even then, pr
I didn’t mention it earlier because it was my second hand, so I had no idea he was that type of player while I played that hand. However, I have seen plenty of players like this at live $1/$2, which makes me wonder whether I may be playing too tightly in general.
I do not mean this hand specifically, as I still think folding was the correct decision given the information available at the time. I am thinking more broadly about whether I should adjust and bluff-catch more often against players who consistently show this level of aggression.
Fairly straightforward fold. The original raiser very likely has an overpair and will they feel priced in if you call? The 5 probably doesn't help CO much although 86s could definitely be in there which is double gutted on the flop.
Preflop and flop are fine. If you're going to have an overcall range I'd imagine the better suited Aces feature prominently in that range. You could also squeeze. I see very little benefit in raising flop - the original raiser probably doesn't fold better and doesn't call worse and while CO might make some calling mistakes, raising still seems like an overplay. So hand seems well played overall
I am thinking more broadly about whether I should adjust and bluff-catch more often against players who consistently show this level of aggression.
Sure, but make sure it's a consistent thing before you start. That sort of adjustment needs some pretty strong reads.
Grunch:
PRE - probably okay to flat call at this stack depth.
Might be better to 3B ATs, but it may be a little too light over an EP open and a call. Could be hard to navigate post flop if we flat call and go multi-way, or if we 3B and get called.
So, yeah, it's probably close between call and 3B. And I somewhat expect illiterat or some other solver jockey to show us it's actually just a fold.
FLOP - I already don't like it when the PFR c-bets big and the MP player calls.
The PFR is repping value that can beat TPTK. CO should have at least Tx for value. If that what he has, it reduces the outs we have vs +3's OP's.
CO shouldn't be chasing straight draws here, but many low stakes players will, and there are a bunch available - 98, 86, and 65 are all 8-out combos. Throw in some J8s or 53s with BDFD's, and it's hard to know what turn cards we want to see.
I think we could consider playing this spot as raise or fold, but when +3 c-bets so large and CO calls, I think we have to put AT into our folding range.
TURN - as played, I think it's a clear fold. We don't beat anything either opponent would be betting or raising for value, and this seems like a spot where they'll both be under-bluffing.
Hero folded, and UTG+3 folded as well. CO showed 96, so he had absolutely nothing.This Asian guy was very loose-aggressive and showed the same kind of aggression in a few later hands as well, also he mentioned other players range sometimes, so gave me the idea he at least try to have a read on other players. One thing I have noticed at live $1/$2 is that players like this can s
+3 may have folded a hand that beat AT. It's possible that the only way you win this hand as played is if you call the jam, and +3 still folds getting better pot odds, and CO's draw bricks out on the river.
Generally we're going to win more pots when we're the pre-flop aggressor. Unfortunately, our ability to 3B pre and win with continued aggression post-flop is hobbled when we're playing a shorter stack. We're going to have a lot of variance if we start 3B'ing hands like ATs over an EP raise and LP call in loose-splashy games.
