President Donald Trump

LOL at a man that age talking about what he has to do to get his girlfriend to **** him. But he is going to win that bet.

As I'm sure you realize, this goal would be unachievable in the United States without radical changes, one of which would have to be extreme urbanization. The average gasoline powered car has 4.6 tons of emissions per year based on moderate driving. And that's just cars. CO2 emissions from commercial trucks, etc., obviously are significant as well.

How much did you bet?

Yes .... it will require radical changes such as I've proposed.

But it wouldn't require extreme urbanization. The Amish lifestyle is below the IPCC threshold emission level. It would be even if you added electricity.

So take the Amish lifestyle .... add electricity and electric transit. Tweak the social and community choices to the preferences of the local people ..... let 'em relocate to find the community that they best vibe with.

Some cities will be necessary. Research universities, hospitals and manufacturing facilities require a larger population base. A lot of people prefer to live in a place with a large population that has more cultural offerings. Sports, theater, public cafes, museums, etc.

If you believe that living like the Amish is an existential necessity, then you might as well abandon any pretense of self-determination and go full Pol Pot. The Amish have a hard enough time convincing their own children to commit to living their adult lives "like the Amish."

Any attempt to convince 400 million Americans to live like the Amish would require a lot of bullets. Intuitively, i think you know this, which is why you started where you started before getting defensive about people criticizing you as a proponent of authoritarianism.

I was simply responding to your assertion that extreme urbanization would be mandatory.

The Amish are an obvious exception to that assertion.

I don't know what's so terrible about living in a rural setting with a big garden in a society which is not beset by environmental chaos. I would do it.

Give me some coffee, internet, a swimming pool, a steady supply of weed, someone competitive to play ping pong with and a woman to snuggle with ..... I'll be perfectly content.

Hey, Nuttybuddy:

Why don't you start living an Amish lifestyle as soon as possible for the next five years and then come back here and tell us about your experience? Seems to me the least you can do since you want ALL of us to live that way.

This is the problem when trying to debate with people like Rococo who are obviously uneducated about the looming consequences of environmental transformation.

They try to fearmonger by raising fears of an outcome which are relatively minor in comparison.

An AMOC shutdown is game over for human civilization. And given that we've never had to manage falling from such a great height while possessing all sorts of WMD's and toxins like nuclear waste ..... approaching extinction is not out of the question.

there’s levels. i used to think i was pretty decent until i played an Indian guy at work in a tournament and he wiped me off the table with zero points. he did win the tournament though.

I already live a relatively environmentally quiet lifestyle. I have given up flying. I drive an old ICE vehicle ~ 1,500 miles per year. I don't eat red meat or poultry but I do eat fish and eggs.

You probably should make it so everyone can live by a lake because traditional swimming pools are not at all eco-friendly.

I'm not a professional. I won't win tournaments and haven't been in a training program.

But I seem to have some natural aptitude, reflexes and can hit with pace from both sides.

At this point, I don't even care so much about game score. A rallying partner to get into a good rhythm with is great exercise.

seems kinda dumb considering how many lifetimes of pollution and emissions the US and Israel put out every single day so they can kill people.

Eggs are poultry, bro.

full disclosure: I thought eggs were considered dairy until about a year ago.

The magnitude of their eco-unfriendliness is trivial. Traditional swimming pools are fine. They make good fun community gathering places. They are great for exercise.

The objective is not to have a society with zero environmental impact. It's to avoid the environmental impacts which will end human civilization.

I am not fear mongering. I'm not arguing with you about whether you are right or wrong about AMOC or anything else related to the environment. I am not debating whether a particular environmental scenario is better or worse than a Pol Pot scenario. I am simply noting that you can't have it all the ways. You can't let people choose the government they want to have because they won't choose a government that will do things that you believe are necessary. So it's really a question of conviction. If you truly believe that all the changes you propose are necessary to prevent "game over" for human civilization, and that half measures are the practical equivalent of doing nothing at all, then you of course should be OK with doing whatever is required to implement the changes you believe are necessary. I think that killing millions of people in the relatively short term probably would be required in order to implement those changes. You of course are free to indulge the belief that there is large scale public support for your proposed policies, and that implementation wouldn't require nearly as much force as I am suggesting. That sounds every bit as delusional as having blind faith that we will just come up with technological solutions in the future that will eliminate all environmental problems, but perhaps I am wrong.

Those of us with a conscience do our best to live within the boundaries our conscience dictates. That leads to better quality sleep.

Just because other people are engaging in murder .... it doesn't feel dumb to try and refrain from it myself.

It's always trivial when the shoe is on the other foot.

Not so sure. From what I could see, the annual CO2 impact of a traditional swimming pool ranges from about 1/3 of a car to a bit more than a gasoline powered car depending on the factors you would expect (months of usage, climate, size of the pool, filtration method, etc.). I think we are going to have to ban private swimming pools in NutNutopia. It's a rich person extravagance anyway.

I would be perfectly fine with people choosing everything they want to choose EXCEPT the freedom to pollute in ways that jeopardize the continuity of human civilization. It's not very different in theory from the current ban on committing murder. In practice, that's massive because civilization threatening pollution is routine in our current way of life.

I don't believe there is large scale public support for these policies.

What I would like to do is some scientific research and gather some evidence as to the reasons why individuals like yourself prefer the trajectory to AMOC and civilization collapse to the policies I am proposing.

You are a single data point Rococo and hopefully an authority on the workings of your own mind.

Instead of living in your projections of what everyone else will want .... please share your expert opinion on why you prefer the current trajectory toward collapse over what I am recommending ?

Are private pets going to be allowed in your utopia? I ask because the environmental impact of feeding domestic dogs and cats is also significant.

Rococo .... I'm trying to determine if you suffer from bystander effect. That you simply don't want to stick your neck out and take a courageous position.

Such a stance would entail hiding oneself behind a cloud of noise about what is politically possible.

The science tells us that we're heading for a relatively rapidly approaching apocalypse. I'm trying to propose the minimum policy necessary adjustment necessary to avert that. Because the minimum adaptation I perceive necessary is indeed incredibly radical, I don't expect people to embrace it.

In order to understand why I propose these radical changes, it's important to understand things like the AMOC and what it's collapse would mean for human civilization.

Without that context .... I grasp why people will not have any comprehension of the motivation for such radical change proposals.

It is within the grasp of an average person to understand the importance of phenomena like AMOC. The critical quality is curiosity which is sadly lacking in so many.

I prefer community pets. Smaller dogs have smaller environmental footprint.

Asking humans to give up dogs altogether is too much. They add so much to people's sense of emotional well-being.

Also ... please stop using the word "utopia". I am not representing my proposals as resulting in a utopia. They should be thought of as an alternative to civilization collapse.

If 1,000 people share a community swimming pool, that's 1/3,000th of a car per person in emissions. Maybe 1 / 1000 for a large pool. That's fine.

And it supplies a job for someone in the community. Taking care of the pool, lifeguard and swimming lessons.