BB Kings Looking to Get Paid!

The squeeze size is way too small. Go like 70ish

Range checking flop is fine. This hand in particular especially has no reason to ever bet in either theory or practice. It needs no protection from overcards and is mostly just folding out worse you have almost dead or giving money away to an A which either player can have often

Agree sizing needs to be bigger OOP.

I'm range betting A high boards after I've 3bet to protect the rest of my range. My range in this exact spot is going to be very tight though, so maybe unnecessary.

You dont want to range bet this spot because your equity isnt high enough vs 2 players (unless you are super tight squeezing as you said, but that itself would be an even bigger leak) and there is almost no protection to be had on such a static board where your opponents have like 3 outs at best when you have something like QQ

My counters for your consideration:

1) We should be 3betting tight in this spot considering original opener's table position.

2) I'm having trouble reconciling "we don't have enough equity" with "opponents have like 3 outs."

3) We have nut and range advantage on any ace high board after we 3bet - I expect solver is cbetting 100% on this board and close to 100% on any A high board (the exceptions will likely be very connected broadway ace high boards such as AQT, AQJ, etc). Where is our GTO wiz subscriber?

I'm also going bigger pre. I go 75 using my standard 4x +1 per caller OOP 3bet sizing.

How wide are you looking to squeeze here? I feel like with the described button overcall I'm going to be widening my squeeze range to get increased value from him. Probably squeezing TT+, AJ+, KQ, A5s. Think I just call QJs, JTs but I don't think it's necessarily wrong to squeeze them as well. I could also see arguments for going down to maybe 88 on pairs but I don't think I would ever squeeze 77 or worse. KQo AJo are definitely marginal squeezes but I kind of hate all 3 options and would rather just push equity against the wide button caller then call or fold.

Given this range on the flop I'm probably checking my underpairs and my KQ whiff hands and A5s, AhA. Betting All my strong Ax and AA without heart as well as KQhh, KQcc and KQo with a heart. I realize in doing this construction exercise that my range is going to be quite unbalanced between checking and betting here. Usually I'm just not worried about my opponents taking advantage of this at 1/3 but maybe I should be.

Agree with others that preflop should be bigger. I'm betting at least 60 and giving them poor IO to set mine etc.

I suppose we have to consider Vs' ranges here.

BTN as described can be super wide, especially from BTN. E has capped her range after her open it seems.

So I think we can x here or c-bet. Neither V can blast off given that we have all the TPTK here. The c-bet would in theory target a worse Ax. If we get a call on the flop, we are probably NG and can proceed accordingly. If we x, we have a bluff catcher and will almost certainly have to call a bet from BTN on the turn even if he x behind.

I prefer to c-bet. I think it's the only way to get to showdown here and certainly the only way to win the pot now.

continued…..
Hero bets 95
E calls
BTN calls

(420) 6h2hAc(2c)
Hero?

Grunch:

PRE - raise bigger. Standard formula when OOP is 4x + 1x for each caller. Adjust for table dynamics, live reads, and stack depth.

If you've got an OMC image, you can go smaller, but at the risk of giving our IP opponents a good price to call and suck out on us.

If you're running over the table, and think they're tired of it, you can go bigger.

When you're starting this deep, and the initial raiser is in EP, and the aggro guy just flat calls, I'd go bigger. At the very least, I wouldn't go smaller. I'd make it at least $75 or $80, and it would cause me physical pain to not make it $90 here, against these two, in this config.

She should have a strong hand that can call a big 3B. We kind of want him to fold, not over-call.

FLOP - it's fine to check range from OOP when multi-way. It's also fine to play A-high flops as check or over-bet. KK isn't a hand we would want to over-bet, so I'd check, and very likely over-fold, depending on who bets, and how much.

Spoiler - I'd over-fold if she bet from EP. I'd fold even more if he called her bet. I might get a little bit sticky if action checked to him in LP and he stabbed at it, but I'd be leery of calling with her still in the hand, and potentially sandbagging in this configuration.

Okay...

That c-bet is too in-between, IMO. I don't think it really accomplishes anything.

If you want to keep their ranges wide, so you can get value from worse, or get them to fold a better hand on a later street, check or bet smaller. If you want to bluff them off a better hand now (good luck with that), bet larger, but if you do that, I'd shut it down and check turn.

This size doesn't make sense for value or as a bluff. She only started with $500, and he only had $600. You're setting up a 2x or lower SPR going to the turn, which leaves you little to no maneuverability.

I don't know what you should do now. I'd think the highest EV play would be to check-fold, but based on your posting history, I'm going to guess you barreled, maybe even jammed, and they both folded, leading you to ask what they may have had.

The answer wouldn't be as instructive as re-considering your pre-flop raise, flop c-bet size, or whatever dubious play you may have made on the turn. But if you don't want advice in that regard, my guess would be they floated flop with some 1P holding or a draw that couldn't hang on when you bomb turn.

Candidly, as much as you profess to post hands with a desire to learn and improve, I've found myself suspecting you post hands you won despite playing poorly, perhaps out of a desire for validation, or sprouting from what clearly seems like a contrarian nature.

Can't wait for the reveal.

I appreciate the comments

Sure, I’m going to do the wrong thing, but it’s not an easy decision - not a standard play

People are not flocking here to answer.

Yes bigger preflop.

I wouldn't range bet an A-high board multiway OOP. Heads up yes often; in position, even better. Here I prefer to check and if I'm betting it's to bet small. UTG isn't calling anything worse to that sort of sizing with button still to act.

Turn you bet big and got two callers anyway. Now you're in a bit of a mess because you're turning your KK into a bluff. There aren't many all that many flush draws (as the nut flush draw is a pair and you block the backdoor nut flush draw). Absent any info that you can get an Ace to fold I would now give up.

Not looking to pile on too much regarding the preflop decision which yes, should be a larger size - but wanted to offer you some simplistic preflop sizing advice that I promise is applicable whether you are online battling the HS wizards or your local 1/3 live game. 3b sizing should be larger OOP vs IP. 3b sizing should be larger against a raise with flat caller(s) VS no player flatting the raise.

For the flop, I would check here - MW when you are first to act w/ middling equity in a way ahead or behind spot decent rule of thumb is to play a lot of checks. Again from a simplistic point of view here when you bet large sizing you allow both V to play perfectly by folding out PP that you are ahead of and get called by Ax that beats you. If your intention of the large flop bet is to run a multi-street “bluff”, your hand has SD with only 2 outs to improve. A hand like KQ/KJhh are better candidates if you are looking to bluff since they have more outs to
improve when behind and block AQ/AJ continues.

Follow-up for additional reason why KQ/KJhh make a better bluff usage, is we also fold equity that beats us - middling PP.

either jam and rep AK, or check/fold. they obviously have some Ax hand and you know better than us if they will fold it. some 1/3 players wont call more than a few hundred bucks without the nuts.

I would raise a lot bigger preflop. I typically like giving poor 8:1 IO (cuz it offers horrendous IO to ~setminers, which is sorta preferred if we're going to setup a small SPR where we're not going to be able to fold an overpair). This is trivial to do at smaller stacks (hence part of the reason I like sitting short). But it's a little more awkward here, in that against these stacks it would require a sizing of about $85 - $100. Still, the lower end of $85 (targeting the initial raiser and not the flatter) is reasonable compared to the "standard" 3x + 1 + a bit for being OOP. I think $45 is far too small, as it will give the Button fairly decent 21+:1 IO, in position, to what will be a 4 SPR pot (where it will be difficult for us to fold an overpair).

I'm old skool WA/WB (Way Ahead versus Way Behind) on flops like this. For the most part, better hands aren't folding on this flop, worse hands ain't calling (although on this slightly drawy fllop there are exceptions to that), and hand strengths are very likely to unchange (i.e. if we're ahead now we'll almost be ahead later, and vice versa). So not much reason to bet. I'd check/evaluate. I'd almost always fold if EP bets with the Button still to act behind (Ax smashes her raise/calling range and it is very strong for them to bet this board with a player behind). Much trickier if Button bets, but still could be a fold given betting into 2 opponents is still a fairly strong move.

ETA: If I were to cbet I think I'd go small just to see what happens for as cheap as possible. So I don't like our large sizing at all. When we're called in both spots I'm done with the hand as it certainly looks like at least one player has an Ace. Pot is now $420 and stacks behind are just $360 and $460, so more-or-less just a PSB left. Although admittedly for "largish" stack sizes for a run-of-the-mill 1/3 NL game (or at least sizes that people are shy of putting in the middle). So, yeah, I've definitely seen people manage to fold AQ here, but I'm not going to attempt it as I'm not sure its going to happen enough (BTW: If they do fold AQ here, is that inconsistent with our other thread idea of how we'd always get paid off with a set here?).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I stand corrected. If we are HU vs UTG+2, solver checks kings here 75% of the time. GTOwiz doesn't have a three handed flop solution, but if we're checking 75% HU then we must be checking waaaay more often 3way.

Reveal
Hero jams, both fold

Probably wrong, just riding the initiative. I thought that an ace would have let me know, so I think I was betting value. I don’t think I get an ace to fold.

Trying to range people at low stakes is challenging. Calls and overcalls represent strong hands that I beat if they have no ace.

But the problem with sizing down to grab value is I might shoot myself in the foot and let them draw out on me.

Maybe a bigger bet pre would have eliminated a player. I don’t like getting a lot of money involved with a one pair hand, but that’s exactly what I did anyway. Not good.

Though open to criticism, I think I was saved by my reads. I don’t think either villain could resist raising with an ace, so their calls (though scary) capped their range in my mind.

Not spending time figuring what they had, I’ve seen some crazy stuff, but they didn’t have an ace.

This hand shows that you need a lot of work and my comment in another thread was pretty warranted.

Every street is really poor here. The PF sizing is way too small, the cbet and sizing in particular are both bad. The turn jam is also really bad. To break it down some more:

PF you need to be getting more value for your hand especially OOP. $75 would be sufficient at least given their stack sizes to ensure they can't set mine properly and you are giving improper IO.

On the flop, this is not a cbet 3 ways and I don't need to look at a solver to know that. And the comment about protecting your betting range is complete nonsense at live poker. Don't do that. Just check. When you did choose to bet, your sizing was way too large. You're getting pocket pairs to fold here at a pretty high frequency which is a disaster since they have two outs and they may put some money in on later streets if you check.

After you bet the flop and got two calls I'm not betting the turn and certainly not shipping. I realize you may have gotten a weak ace to fold but I kind of doubt it. Maybe draws didn't realize their equity by folding to your jam but the times you get snapped off by an Ace here is not worth shipping in your stack against likely flush draws that only have 9 outs.

This hand was played massively -EV and just happened to work out.

Called it.

You were over-playing thin value. Effectively, you were turning SDV into a bluff. If you didn't think an ace would fold, you'd still be bluffing, but it would be a bluff that didn't make any sense. It only makes sense if you think an ace will fold.

I'm going to suggest that you're thinking about ranging opponents the wrong way. Don't try to put them on an exact hand. Just try to think about all the hands they could have, and then put those hands into buckets of nutted hands, thick value, thin value, SDV, draws, etc.

This is where our bet sizing comes in.

When we use in-between sizing, it's harder to range them, because they'll call too much vs smaller bets and over-fold vs bigger bets. Middling bet sizes lead them to call less with the weaker parts of their range and fold less with the stronger parts of their range. The result is that our middling sizing tends to condense their range to stronger hands / good draws.

Also, they tend to slow-play more on ace-high flops, hence the over-bet or check strat on ace-high boards. To be fair, this one is a little unclear because there's a FDFD and we're OOP, but I'd still mostly just check-evaluate the flop.

That's fear-based thinking. We 3B pre. When we check flop, their flush draws will bet sometimes, as will some of their AX combos. And very often, they'll telegraph their hand strength with their bet sizing. That's fine. We're not looking to play a bloated pot with KK on this board.

Mostly, they're just going to check back on this flop, opening the door for us to make a delayed c-bet on the turn.

When we c-bet the flop multi-way in a 3B pot on this board texture, we're folding out a lot of the weaker parts of their range, and forcing them to continue with stronger hands and good draws. Barreling turn forces them to fold out even more, funneling them into continuing with only the strongest value hands and the best draws, and folding everything else.

It's okay to play a smaller pot with KK here. If you want to get max value for your hand, the best way to do that is to raise bigger pre, so they don't get to the flop with such wide ranges.

That doesn't make sense, especially when combined with your post-flop actions. You should want to get as much money as possible into the pot with a big PP pre.

Debatable.

Also debatable.

I like this post because not everyone agrees and there’s more than one road to take. It’s actually like that with any post, but some of you think your way is the only way.

If I bet 75+ preflop with my image, I win $30 and they both fold. Players are price sensitive in continuing, if you do the normal thing they call (I think we want calls), but big bets are enough to fold them. IMO

So, for the many recommending bigger pre squeeze, are you content taking it down? Is this the takeaway you want from me, bet my aces so big that everyone folds and smile big winning the pot. Isn’t that what the fish do?
I’m just not sure that’s a takeaway here.

The key move (right or wrong) is the flop. I think solvers would use a small bet multiway, but they might check. The best move here is still unclear to me.

When I bet big into an ace high board, I was stunned to get two callers. It sure looks like someone has an ace and I probably should give up.

But as I shuffled my chips, I came to believe that an ace has to raise in this spot with the many draws, so it’s more likely they have the draw. If they don’t have an ace, they can’t call and Now, I do want to take down the dead money.

So, that’s my logic
I might have done something different against different players. Yes, I won the hand doc, but I would have posted it if one of them had an ace. There were some difficult decisions in this hand.

My takeaway is that instead of trying to fold one of them with a flop bet and getting too involved in the hand, I should have bet small on the flop and seen where that took me.

Certainly still accepting advice and would enjoy your reactions to these statements.

I see a lot of players fold kings face up on an ace high board. But usually if a lot of people are doing it, it’s not the best move.

A couple of things here. Firstly, taking down the pot preflop is almost always a massive win. The only hand that really wants action is AA because it has so much equity that it wants to build a pot up as much as possible. Pretty much every other hand is either delighted to win the pot straight away, or indifferent. That's true both preflop and postflop. It's true that KK is strong enough that it would like action - but when it gets action it would prefer it to be with a larger pot and heads up. Pot was 135 going into the flop. Had you made it 60 preflop and got one caller, pot would still have been 135 but your situation would have been better.

Secondly, as much as ranging your opponents you need to range yourself better. It's a 3bet pot. Regardless of what other hands may or may not be in your range, AA/KK/QQ/AK are always going to be there, yes? When you size up generally you want to be more polarised. You're saying "I have a strong Ace" so you'll get called (or raised) by the sets, the draws and the weak Aces. Or you can bet small just "cos range advantage" which will make your opponents squirm with all their medium pocket pairs. The big flop bet just means they can cheerfully fold anything weaker than an Ace and not be frustrated; they can call (and lost much of the time) with their weak Ax hands. Also notice that you not having an Ace in your hand makes it more likely that they do.

This is very typical of how you respond to constructive advice. It's a deflection built on rhetorical platitudes, a bastard hybrid of subjectivism and solipsism - reality is subjective rather than objective and only your own mind is certain to exist.

"Not everyone agrees" - actually, as is often the case in your threads, there's a fairly unanimous consensus about how you should have played the hand, as opposed to how you actually played it. Considering how frequently we argue amongst ourselves, it's surprising how often we all agree in your threads. The only one who consistently disagrees is you.

"There's more than one road to take" - true enough, as far as it goes. The obvious roads would be the theoretically optimal and the maximally exploitative. You seem to have a knack for letting logical inconsistencies lead you completely off-road.

"Some of you think your way is the only way" - also true enough, as far as it goes, and clearly evident in enough threads, but very rarely is it the case in your threads.

Again, if you posited that you played your hand the way a solver would, or gave a consistent and sound logical basis for making some gross deviation from theory, most or all of us would examine your reasoning to see if A) it makes sense, and B) your actions logically flow from the reasoning.

But that's often not the case, as it isn't here. This hand was off the rails from pre-flop, with dubious decisions in every node. If you said, "I think I might have messed this one up pretty badly," we'd all agree and look for the cause.

But there's nothing for us to do when your standard response is to suggest it's all just a matter of various and differing opinions with no clear conclusions to be had. As if reality is unknowable / unprovable, and we're all possibly just mental constructs sprouted from your sub-conscious.

IME, a lone Ace TP very rarely raises postflop, especially with non-short stacks. In general, most people don't want to play for gobs with one pear if they don't have to, so they just try to showdown for a reasonable price.

What hands are we getting value from with a turn shove on an Ace high board if we're ahead? The next best hand is QQ; are they calling a shove? And if they ain't, are any worse hands calling a shove? Admittedly board is somewhat drawy so a bet does protect against that, as well as two outers / etc. from hitting, but we should be far less concerned about those hands than we should about shoveling our stack into Ax.

Having said all that... it's not impossible that someone folded a small Ax here. But that makes our turn bet a bluff, not a value bet. And usually we want to bluff with hands that have little showdown value, not hands that have good showdown value.

GcluelessNLnoobG