Live $1/$2 NLHE — Top two pair facing a river shove

I think you played it well.
Why do I have a feeling that you lost.

As you say, even with 2pair, it’s hard to range this guy with a worse hand.

Still, you can’t turn down these pot odds without knowing for sure you’re beat. Not all OMC’s are alike and some make dumb mistakes like overplaying AQ. These guys are used to folding people with their image. He’s not used to many hero calls when he jams.

Villain ended up having KQ.

His hand made sense because he had limped preflop and then only called my raise to $7. For that reason, I considered AA, KK and QQ less likely, although I understand your reasoning and would not rule them out completely.

I am also not sure that he would have called the preflop raise with hands such as Q7 or Q4. In a few earlier hands, I had seen him limp and then fold when facing a raise, so his continuing range may have been stronger than I initially assumed.

That said, folding K7 was difficult. On that board, I had the second-highest possible two pair, behind only KQ, although sets were still possible. The pot odds also made the river decision close, maybe I could have fold on turn but still, not easy.

A hero fold may have been possible given the strength of his line, but it would still have been a very difficult fold to make in real time.

This may be splitting hairs, but...

I don't see many low stakes players limping in from EP and then folding to small raises. So, the question isn't whether or not he calls your raise with Q7/Q4. It's whether or not he limps with those hands in the first place.

It's possible. Not every old dude is super nitty pre. But if he's open limping KQ, he probably isn't also open-limping a lot of trash.

I'm leery whenever I notice someone who appears to be an aware player open limp from EP. It's obvious they have a hand when they limp-3B, but it's easy to underestimate their range when they limp, action folds around to us, we raise, and the blinds fold. When the limper sees there's no money in the pot, they can change their plans and continue slow playing.

Post flop, it can be hard to deduce the
their reasoning for whatever actions they take. Sometimes they bet big because of greed or being scared of a bad run-out. Sometimes they bet small because they don't want to lose their customer.

It's hard to range opponents effectively when we use small raise and bet sizes. We keep their ranges wide, but we might also induce aggression, even from otherwise passive players.

The fact that he limp-called pre with KQ is interesting, but so are his flop min click, pot size turn barrel, and river jam. The mental note I'd make on him is that he's loose-passive pre, but TAGgro post. His range is likely too strong when he takes this sort of line, so we can over-fold.

I'd be interested to see him show down more hands. Specifically, I'd like to see if he has bluffs in over- or under-bluffed spots, and what he does when his hands get downgraded on later streets. I want to see if he chases draws or gets stubbornly sticky with SDV.

The immediate adjustment I'd make after seeing this hand would be to do a lot of checking back on flops as the PFR when IP, and either going for max value/max fold equity or pot-controlling on turns and rivers.

I think what this really points to is overplaying position. I’m guilty too, folds to us on the button and I’m raising anything, but maybe that’s a leak. Folding this hand preflop is certainly reasonable. I hate stacking off with K7.

Overall however, in this situation villain had an unusually perfect connection with the board and we got enough of it to get ourselves in trouble. I recently watched Josh Ariah fold 2pair to a river jam. It can be done.

OMC was a clue
Pot sized turn bet was a clue
This player type doesn’t jam light

But this is much like losing to a set. Sometimes you just can’t see it coming. Maybe the takeaway is to tighten up our button play. Maybe it’s more respect for an OMC becoming aggressive from UTG. Maybe it’s just shrug & realize that sometimes you just lose.

I don't like the small raise preflop. You're going to end up getting called by pairs, Ax and better Kx an awful lot. Fold or overlimp would be better, but if you do raise, at least make it a size where you might fold out some Aces.

Why the large flop bet? Are you hoping to get called by worse? Do you think a Queen will fold? You can get hands like AJ to fold with a much smaller bet. Otherwise checking is perfectly reasonable.

But the worst is still to come. You get check-raised on a dry-as-dust flop by a player you describe as OMC...what on earth are you doing calling? I mean you even said the words yourself, "Given that Villain is a typical OMC and check-raised the flop, I assumed that he almost certainly had a made hand"

As for the situation you find yourself in on turn and river, it's a bit of a moot point after all that has gone on before. The main hands you beat are AA, KK and Qx and does this player type check-raise flop with a Queen and then blast off turn and river if described as an OMC? That really gives you a limp-called AA/KK.

But all this just compounds the early mistakes. If you'd got out when you should have got out, you could have limited your losses to something much smaller.

If guy is really an OMC, we just fold flop.
/End thread.

Seeing results tbh, not sure what omc check min/raise w/tpgk. For an OMC to take this line, he has to think you are a whale.

Btw OMC aren't going to show up w/q7/q4 type hands. Range is like 44/77. We block 77 so it's like 44 only.

So imho, I think your description is wrong.

Yes, this hand is nothing to worry about as it was unfortunate you both hit 2pair on the turn.

I do think that with evidence of him playing fit or fold on the flop. We needed that info. I prob fold to the flop check-raise - you have a pair of sevens

OMC check-raises.
I mean just think about that sentence

I missed it too at first glance, but I think just because the bets are small on early streets, we have to think about what they imply. Especially, before getting involved with the big bets to come.

Once you trapped yourself on the turn
Yes, it was hard to get away

Good post
Makes me think about not getting OOL on the button vs early opens from tight players.
and
Respect those early check-raises from the population. There’s a time to continue with 2nd pair, but not against a show of strength.

I called the flop raise because it was very small. I had to call another $13 to play for a final pot of $67, so I needed around 19% equity, and I had middle pair.

Unfortunately, the K on the turn improved both of us.

I understand the comments that I perhaps should have realised his range was unlikely to include hands such as Q4, and maybe I shouldn't have been involved in this hand. However, the criticism of my call on the flop does not really resonate with me, given the price I was getting, although I appreciate the different opinions, if respectful.

You can't fold flop. You can fold turn.