KJo in a Live £1/£2 NLHE — T7 makes a river boat facing a bet

Don't overcall preflop with T7o. T8s yes.

Probably bet the flop - are you just going to fold when a turn overcard comes and someone bets?

Jam river is fine. Trips is a plausible holding to bet-fold following that action although plenty of players would call off. Flushes might get to the river this way as well and you'd hate yourself if you raised smaller and got called by a flush.

Yeah I agree about some of your points.
Ragaeding the flop, I checked back the flop because the pot was multiway and I only had top pair with a weak kicker. If I bet and get called by several players, I can easily be up against a better 7, a set, or a strong draw, and the hand becomes difficult to play on later streets.

I also did not think I would get much value from many worse made hands. A lot of overcards and complete air would simply fold, while the hands that continue would usually have decent equity against me.

So my idea was to control the size of the pot, realise my showdown value, and avoid getting check-raised with a marginal top pair. I accept that checking gives draws a free card, but in a multiway pot I preferred taking the lower-variance line.

Fold pre - Why? Unless you get a miracle board, you are going to be lucky to lose only your pre call. What sorts of flops are going to be good for you and give you enough confidence to build a nice pot? AP, you got a very favorable flop for your hand but you were still afraid to bet from the best position.

Do a quick EV rough approximation calc in your head. You know T7 is going to lose much more often than it wins, so when it wins you have to get paid big. What sorts of boards will give you enough confidence to bet big AND also get your Vs to pay you off? If V really had A7 and you didn't hit a 3 outer river, you might have lost all or most of your stack.

Yes. And that's exactly why you shouldn't have called pre.

I don't think you have SDV. Against 5Vs, any turn or river higher than a 7 means you lose. Any low cards might give someone a flush or straight. The only way you don't lose this hand is to get a perfect runner runner.

I don't think the AI was an error. But let's say your V really had X7 or a flush. The A7 is totally plausible that he could have bet and folded to your AI. You wanted a call from a flush or another X7. When you say AI, it screams of confidence or bluff. Most 1/2 type players will take AI as confidence. You want the curious George player to call you. So announce a modest raise to $185 but only put out one stack. I know it's virtually the same thing as AI in this case, but it **might** get you the call you want. With more experienced players, forget what I said and just AI.

Grunch:

PRE - Seems like an overly optimistic and loose call, even for $7, but whatever, I like playing splashy too, sometimes. Folding is boring.

FLOP - I probably just bet our hand for value. Might bet half-ish pot or a little more.

TURN - Probably bet a little bigger. The x/r would make me think V has 7x, and I'd be wondering if he's got us out-kicked. No real point in 3B'ing IP. Just call and see if he wants to fire again on the river. If not, I'd be doing a lot of checking back.

RIVER - Don't tank-jam with value if you can avoid it. It looks strong. Do that with bluffs.

I think your jam is fine. Would have been better if you just bet out on the flop and built the pot.

I'm not sure I'd believe he had A7 or better and folded to our jam. I don't think the flush is relevant when he x/r's turn, unless he was afraid you had a flush. I suppose that's possible, but I'd think A7 would have just come out and donked turn or x/r'd bigger if the board was two-tone.

He may be overly cautious or MUBSy.

Overall, other than the loose call pre, the check-back on the flop, and the small turn bet, I think you played the hand fine (probably sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not).

"- Is calling the turn check-raise better than 3-betting?"

Yes.

"- On the river, is shoving the best way to maximise value, or would a smaller raise have been more likely to get called?"

Shoving is better.

"- What range would you give BB after he bet-folded the river so quickly? Could he realistically have folded trips or a completed flush, or does the quick fold suggest that he was bluffing and only asked about my full house to get information?"

I wouldn't worry too much about his range after he folds at this SPR.

The small turn x/r rather than a donk and the bet-quick fold could be an indication he was bluffing. Your flop check back and small turn bet may have induced. He may just be fishing for info by asking what you had and telling you he had A7.

It's also possible he made up his mind he was bet-folding before he bet, or decided he was folding to a raise while you were in the tank (part of why we don't want to tank before raising with value).

It seems really unlikely he decided to check turn, check raise small, and then bet-fold A7 when the flush comes in. He could just check-evaluate the river.

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"He seemed genuinely annoyed about the hand and asked me several times what I had even after. Before than hand, he didn't play many hands."

He may have been annoyed at himself for how he played the hand. Or maybe annoyed at you for not betting the flop or going bigger on the turn.

Passive players can sometimes annoy aggro players when the passivity leads to variance for the aggro player. I lost a couple big pots last night, due to a passive player's loose call bringing in another opponent with a hand that otherwise probably would have folded but instead sucked out.

He may have been asking what you had because your line didn't make sense to him. Or maybe he just wanted to confirm his line on the turn and river were bad, or that he made a good fold.

He may think of himself as a good hand-reader, and couldn't figure out how you can jam river, as played.

Like, you're not supposed to have TT, T7, 74, 44, or 22 here, the way you played it. If he has the NF blocker in his hand, you can't have the NF. You can't really be bluffing on the river. So, yeah, he may be struggling to figure out how you get there the way you did with a nutted hand.

Also, do you remember the suits of the cards on board and in your hand?

Just wondering if he had A7s that turned the world with top trips and the NFD.

It would be pretty amazing if a low stakes player folded A7s for the NF here. He'd have to think you were boated up, hence his pestering you about what you had.

I might have told him 22. Never admitting it was T7o.

Unfortunately, I don't remember the suits of the cards, but the flush would have been on the river, not the turn. I told him I had four of a kind, laughing.

I fail to understand the long missives on this. It’s such a basic fold 1000% of the time even without a raise pre. None of the post flop play should ever transpire.

Cliffs /fold pre /thread

Because just saying fold pre doesn't help people understand why.

Though we like our button, calling a UTG open and two other callers with a literal 50% hand is -EV longterm. Even with the stupid high SPR from the dinky open, and keeping sub's point from last month in mind about having position on bad players as often as possible.

T7s, ok, still dumb but w/e. What're we folding if we're overcalling T7o? 94o?

250bb deep, almost prefer 3!/f if we *must* play this. But jeez, I play enough hands normally.

There’s a book from an Australian pro with some interesting takes on math in this game. I search far and wide for understanding. He maintains that ‘any’ hand with a seven or lower loses so often it’s rarely worth playing.

I know there’s the board coverage thing, but I think about this often. Why crawl in there with a hand that will lose most of the time.

UTG open is small but is usually a strong range and two calls before it gets to you. It feels like you have a butter knife facing 3people with machetes or guns. It’s seems so clear to me, but I guess it’s not easy to explain.

I like to float, but not multi way. Regardless, here we are - I would bet the flop for sure. I wonder if the turn still gets check/raised.

Hand reading in a forum is kinda ridiculous, but I think the guy had a seven and would call a smaller river bet. People have quietly been trained that they have it when they jam.

His badgering further makes me think he folded a strong hand, and is wondering if it was a mistake.

Don’t think I ever get there quite like this, but I could fold a seven to a jam. My game is built around winning a lot of small pots and playing big pots with the nuts. I’d give you credit here.

Bluffs are good because you win what’s in the pot (dead money) but value is much better because you gain another bet if you don’t blow villain out of the pot.

I agree with you. A bluff is definitely possible. My flop check-back and small turn bet may have looked weak and induced the check-raise.

I’m also unsure how much weight to give his claim that he had A7. If he did, the quick fold is a little surprising, as I would expect many live $1/$2 players to at least think longer with top trips.

He could also have overplayed an overpair such as JJ, 99, 88 or maybe even 66, and after the other 7 on turn he would have felt more considering, interpreting my flop check-back as weakness. However, the river bet would be unusual with those hands, especially once the river completed the flush.

Overall, a bluff seems quite plausible though.

Yes, I understood that.

If the 4 and 2 on the flop were the same suit, he could have had A7s that was TPTK + the NFD on the flop, then he turned trip 7's + top kicker + NFD, then he rivered the nut flush.

If that's what he had, he was only losing to boats. It would be pretty insane for most low stakes players to fold the nut flush when also blocking 7's full. But you can't really be bluffing on the river, and it's hard to see what worse value hands you'd have, as played.

I'd think he'd have specified that he had the nut flush with A7 if that's what he had. The nut flush being a better hand than simply trips with top kicker. It's not as hard to fold trips when the flush comes in. But he asked you what boat you had, not if you had the flush, which would seem to suggest he had the nut flush.

But if he had A7 with the NF, he'd have to put you on T7o, 74o, 72o, 44, or 22 in order to fold.

Since most of that list is straight up trash, I could see a hand-reader type trying to get you to admit you made a stupid call pre, and you got insanely lucky to boat up when the case 7 comes on the turn, giving him trips, and then he makes the NF on the river, adding insult to injury.

That's why I'd say I had 22 (or 44, same reasons), when we over-called on the BTN pre. At least those make some sense as an over-call pre. Even if you told him you had 44 or 22, he might not believe you, when you don't bet the flop with a set on a two-tone board and action checks to you on the BTN.

If I was him, and I had A7s for the NF + top trips / top kicker, I'd likewise be struggling to figure out how you got to the river the way you did with a boat, even if I thought it was obvious you had to have one.