2/5 ~ Top2 facing river x/r

river sizing looks bad to me, id call now

Grunch:

PRE - wondering if QJo isn't just a fold when the straddle is on and we're only $520 eff. If it's a raise, wondering if we shouldn't raise bigger than 3x.

FLOP - think we could c-bet a little bigger, like $40.

TURN - think I'd just check it back now that we have SDV.

RIVER - as played, I'd almost certainly check back. V's x/r is pretty gross. Hard to fold given the price we're getting, but I don't think we're good here very often. V has to be turning something with SDV into a bluff when we have sets, straights, and flushes in our range.

I dunno. I think I might fold, and scold myself for putting myself in that position.

Would not bet the river when the flush showed up. Quick check/calls smells like a draw.

I like bigger cBets on the flop heads up. I would go 55-75 or very small 15.

Though we hit our hand, I’d take the FreeCard on the turn. The nuts will likely change on the river.

Though I bet bigger on the flop, I arrive at the river with less invested and an easier fold.

Not sure what to tell you as with top two, there are an awful lot of combos that you beat. A lot of players think they can get a call easier going less than all-in. Seems like he wants a call.

You call, he shows flush, someone says what did you think he had….

I think it’s too tight not to open a mediocre hand like this from the button. However, unless we smash the flop, it’s important to remember it’s still a mediocre hand and worse hands probably don’t call too often from the small blind six handed.

We always checking back turn for pot control??? Don't we have a high double barrel frequency? You are not barreling any high cards?
We only lose to TJ and slowplayed sets/st8s? But with timing tell we can eliminate alot of his slowplays? We literally only lose to TJ?
If we only bluffing on turns then we are never balanced? I guess if V is never calling with worse, then check back turn is fine? But if that's the case then we should always bluff the turn? Maybe this line is better with bluffs since live players tend to overfold to turn barrels?

As for river bet, isn't thin value a thing? We never bluffing river? If we check, we don't even have a betting range on river besides flushes?

Btw, I thought you were an aggro player? Don't aggro players thin value like a madman to get max value?
In game I thought I might have an aggro(asian) image although table just started.

In game, I also thought V might x/r flop which he didn't.
I started wondering if it was better to check back flop. Then hungry horse range cbetting came to mind...

I like how u played up until the river.
OTR I think your only sizes are x back and shove. There’s only like 1.2 SPR
And our hand is plenty good enough to shove. So I would just shove.

It’s also worth noting that on QJT boards as the PFR you can get into a leveling game since you’re the only player who can have AK. You pick a huge size to rep AK or bust and they have to play some hero call defense that includes blocking hands like AQ AJ AT KQ KJ KT. And then you get to extend your value range down to sets and 2 pairs pretty quickly. We’re not quite there because of the 3 flush board but it’s in the back of my mind

No, not always. But we're probably risking value-owning ourselves if we bet and get called again.

When we make a decent TP on this board, we're now beating all his worse 1P that floated the flop. Yes, he could have some draws here, but they're all pretty obvious. What we'd like is for him to turn worse value into a bluff or bluff with his busted draws on the river.

If we bet, consider the bet sizing and what we're trying to accomplish. A big bet mostly folds out all his worse value and leaves him with too strong a range. A small bet could induce him to raise, and our hand doesn't really want to call a raise on this board.

By process of elimination, it's a good spot to just check back and look to bluff catch the river.

I dunno. Do we? Like, in a vacuum, regardless of board texture and configuration? Probably not.

This is a wide-vs-wide config. V could have a lot of strong hands on this board. I'd think this is a board and spot where we could split our range. We could have some check-backs, and some bets, but I'd think we'd want to have a somewhat polar betting range of nutted hands and high-equity draws for semi-bluffs.

You bet 60% pot. What is that bet size supposed to accomplish? Are you hoping worse will call, and then call again on the river? That seems unlikely. Are you hoping he folds? If we think our hand is best and we want to get value, I'd think we'd want to bet bigger, but of course the bigger we bet, the stronger his continue range gets.

I wouldn't say that, necessarily.

You're not starting out all that deep. You're not deep enough to barrel and set up a big, scary river bet. The spot you're in on the turn is why I said we should fold or raise bigger pre, and c-bet bigger on the flop.

If we're going to play this hand, starting only 52 straddles deep, we should try to play a two-street game with it, when we have value or a really good draw. Otherwise, it just sucks to have QJo as the PFR, especially on this board texture, which mostly favors V as the PFC in the blinds.

Yes, but he can easily have all those hands.

Ehhh...timing tells are real, but they don't necessarily always mean V is on a draw. If we thought he was on a draw, we should bomb it, not bet 60% pot.

It may be that V isn't the scared-money type that will automatically x/r the flop or turn with made hands. He might be snap calling because he doesn't need to think about putting in a raise.

Ehhh...not necessarily. But we do lose to JT, which he could easily have in range. We also lose to all the other 2P combos he could have here, when he flats from the SB.

I wouldn't say we're only bluffing. We could have some value bets and some bluffs, and some check-backs. It's hard to be balanced when we're not starting deep enough to have big turn bets that can be followed up by big river over-bets.

I wouldn't say he's NEVER calling with worse. I'd say he's probably not going to call turn with worse, and pay off a river bet. And he could x/r the turn, forcing us to fold. He may or may not bluff the river if we bet turn, but he'll probably bluff more if we check back.

Stop. How are you ranging V here? He called your flop raise, and your somewhat small flop c-bet. He has a pretty wide range. But if he's folding the worst hands in that range pre or on the flop, what do you think he has when he arrives on the turn?

I'd think T9/T8/88/99 are probably the worst hands he has that get to the turn. The rest of his range is going to be 2P+, pair + draws, and draws to pretty nutted hands.

Is that a range you want to bluff? Is that a range you think you can get a lot of value from? Like, if you bet turn as a bluff, what part of that range is folding? And how big would you need to bet to get folds? Is any of that range folding for 60% pot? Which hands fold?

I'd think you'd need to jam turn to get him to fold most of his range. It would have been easier to jam if you raised bigger pre and c-bet bigger on the flop. If you made it $40 pre and $60 on the flop, you could jam for 2x pot here, and fold out everything that isn't 2P+. You might even fold out some of his worst 2P.

They don't over-fold when you're only starting out 52 straddles deep, and you raise small pre, c-bet small on the flop, and barrel small on the turn. This is a terrible line with bluffs and thin value. It would be a pretty meh line with the nuts.

It is a thing. What are you hoping will call your river bet? In V's spot, what is the absolute worst hand you could have that would get here this way, and flick in the call?

Again, how are you ranging V here? If he was on a flush draw, he got there. If he was slow-playing a big hand, he was already there. Is he going to sigh-call with JT or worse 2P?

Your bet sizing scheme looks exactly like thin value. A competent opponent may decide it's higher EV to turn worse 2P into a bluff.

If you can't get value from worse, then it may be too thin to bet.

Is that what you were doing here? Bluffing? How are you bluffing with top 2P?

No. We can have a betting range, including some value and some bluffs. But is this the size you'd bet with a bluff? Is this the size you'd bet with the nuts? Is this the line you'd take with the NFD?

Some would say too aggro. Apparently some think I'm not all that aggro. I like to think I'm smart about being aggro, by finding good spots to get OOL or bet thin. This isn't one of those spots, IMO.

If they're any good, aggro players know when to pump the brakes, especially with thin value in spots where our opponents can have nutted value.

I recently checked back the rivered 2nd nut flush in a spot where I'd been semi-bluffing and my opponent had been check-calling the whole way on a wet and draw-heavy board. I could have bet and folded if he raised, but I thought he may have been drawing to the nuts, and got there the same way I did.

So I checked back, and he showed a straight. I missed value. It happens. I didn't think he'd be chasing a straight draw on a flushing board. I'd been playing 8 hours and was getting tired. But the point is - it's okay to not go too thin when opponents can't have very many worse hands that will call.

I'm not proud of it. But I would have been sick if he snap-called my jam, and all-in was pretty much the only bet size that made sense, as played.

Why would you have an aggro image if the game just started? If you did have an aggro image, that might mean you can get looked up light. But it also leads opponents to trap more, assuming we'll always barrel off.

This is why we sometimes need to pump the brakes and not go too thin. Consider the future EV of tilting opponents by not falling into their trap when they slow-play.

You didn't start that deep. V doesn't need to x/r flop when you're only 52 straddles effective. He can get all the money in by the river, if you keep betting.

Range betting the flop IP is fine. Your sizing pre and on the flop was too small. You didn't range your opponent, or plan ahead by thinking through all the variations of what happens if.

Interesting hand.

I like Hero play up to river. River sizing is awkward, I'm inclined to agree that jam may be better. It's button vs SB after all - ranges are wide

I've seen results, my instinct was calling river is dubious but close and I might have folded. Speaking with hindsight, lots of hands which can be turned into bluffs (T9 etc). I would not have expected AJ to be turned into a bluff though. Not sure if V should be calling with AJ on this flop?

I think your line likely induced him to turn his hand into a bluff. Have to admire his guts, holding a hand that doesn't block any nutted hands in our range, other than AK and JJ.

Not sure why his story doesn't make sense. Your line leading up to the river doesn't look all that strong. It isn't crazy for him to give you a chance to bet again rather than coming out and donking with a strong hand, assuming you can't call with a weak hand or busted draw.

Suppose he donk-jammed river. Would you have called?

I think he played it well. If you check back the river he gets to win often enough. If you bet small again, he knows AJ is no good and he can x-jam to put max pressure on your weak range. If you bet big he can easily fold.

Looks ok until the river.
River, the spr is too small to b/f, so I am definitely on the check or shove camp.

I won't comment on your call otr because I am biased by seeing the result.

However, I stongly disagree with those saying that V played the hand well.
His flatting pf from the sb is plain awful; the c/c otf seems marginal at best, and river I just have no clue what he's doing.

Allow me to revise my earlier comment.

V probably should have raised from the SB pre. We can ding him for that.

His flop x/c is...debatable? He's got two overs and a BDSD. OP bet 40% pot. It's an optimistic, if likely somewhat -EV call.

His turn call with TPTK seems pretty standard.

I'm indifferent regarding his river x/jam. I think it's an advanced play that sounds "right" in theory, but tends to confuse some opponents enough that they flick in overly optimistic calls. It happened to not work here because hero ran into top 2P. It wouldn't have worked if hero had better than top 2P, but hero's line suggested he didn't.