can we all agree now that Dwan played this hand bad?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoLbBA0K...
Tom says it's standard ... I'm not an expert but it does seem a bit odd to sh
So really PH actually out played Dwan, still had 10 outs going into the river.
If you look at their rematch a year later when Dawn looks like he's been up all night, again PH owns him and this time he holds up and wins easily.
There was a lot of luck in that forum. With 60xBB HU, it is likely TT and AA will get allin against each other, whether or not all the money goes in preflop.
So really PH actually out played Dwan, still had 10 outs going into the river.
If you look at their rematch a year later when Dawn looks like he's been up all night, again PH owns him and this time he holds up and wins easily.
funnily enough, dwan says himself here that knowing what he knows now about helmuth, it was an absolute punt
Guy was (is) so rich that he got benyamine to shove 600k w/ a naked FD , called with top 2 then when he saw David literally having a panic attack gave him the option to take it back and he got to keep the original raise. Benyamine agreed to this. Guy said, "this means nothing to me, but for you...I know its a lot". Yea, it was probably half his roll at the time. 30 million over
"You can sheer a sheep many times, but skin him only once."
- ed norton in fight club
For Dwan, the only thing more standard than this hand is to immediately challenge someone to as many heads up matches as they want knowing full well that you will take a permanent hiatus from the matches if you start losing.
I think the hand was poorly played by Dwan - I bet Phil's limp/3bet range is super nutty and Dwan with his postflop advantage shouldn't be playing big preflop pots without the nuts.
Guy was (is) so rich that he got benyamine to shove 600k w/ a naked FD , called with top 2 then when he saw David literally having a panic attack gave him the option to take it back and he got to keep the original raise. Benyamine agreed to this. Guy said, "this means nothing to me, but for you...I know its a lot". Yea, it was probably half his roll at the time. 30 million over
It was Doyle who said to Benyamine when Guy offered for him to choose to run it once or twice "This represents one day in his life, and it represents you entire life" with a laugh.
One of the many great lines from Doyle in those first seasons of HSP. RIP to the GOAT.
I'd be getting it in with TT at 66bbs as well. Phil Helmuth may be on the nittier side, but over adjusting can be a grave mistake, because sometimes nittier players will play off of their image.
Phil Helmuth did the same limp/raise against Jason Koon with Q6o & even threw in an additional raise after it got bumped up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq2YZI61...
Granted this was 250ish bbs deep and this is years later so that may change things.
I've heard people over the years say that Phil Helmuth or Tom Dwan are fish/bad, but the reality is that they were really strong players in their day and are probably still good now depending on the lineup. Even if certain plays are theoretically bad, sometimes creative exploitative lines can make up for those mistakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoLbBA0K...
Tom says it's standard ... I'm not an expert but it does seem a bit odd to shove when so deep and get snapped by everything beating or flipping with you.
Part of what you're not factoring in is that Hellmuth's style has changed over the years. Back then he was absolutely known for making folds in spots that seemed to make no sense and looked ridiculous to everyone else (eg, he'd be in a tournament with 6BB, 2x raise it, and fold to a 3bet type stuff). I'd expect at the time this shove gets Hellmuth to fold AJ, AQ, TT, JJ. Think it would have been 50-50 if he called with AK or QQ. Not inconceivable he goes on a 10 minute speech to get camera time and folds kings. Dwan was absolutely not getting snapped by everything beating or flipping with him.
For Dwan, the only thing more standard than this hand is to immediately challenge someone to as many heads up matches as they want knowing full well that you will take a permanent hiatus from the matches if you start losing.
A+ roast, no notes.
Part of what you're not factoring in is that Hellmuth's style has changed over the years. Back then he was absolutely known for making folds in spots that seemed to make no sense and looked ridiculous to everyone else (eg, he'd be in a tournament with 6BB, 2x raise it, and fold to a 3bet type stuff). I'd expect at the time this shove gets Hellmuth to fold AJ, AQ, TT, JJ. Think
Folding QQ do me a favour
He’s too advanced for you
hmmm well he was obviously in a funny mood there. And the fact it happened once means we caught the one and only time he's ever doing it in his life. haha
see this is why you guys lose money online. pick your stakes heads up, I've said it a million times
hmmm well he was obviously in a funny mood there. And the fact it happened once means we caught the one and only time he's ever doing it in his life. haha
As was previously noted, Phil was (back then) famous for these kinds of folds. I just decided to show you one that specifically was folding QQ. There are plenty of similar vid out there showing him doing this and looking like a genius (this was during his "I can dodge bullets baby" period.) He has a bunch of Fit/Fold moments, esp in cash where he is likely to run it 18 times AND take insurance with 20% vig. Often makes him look the fool in cash games but a genius at short stack play in tournaments (at least in large MTT).
As was previously noted, Phil was (back then) famous for these kinds of folds. I just decided to show you one that specifically was folding QQ. There are plenty of similar vid out there showing him doing this and looking like a genius (this was during his "I can dodge bullets baby" period.) He has a bunch of Fit/Fold moments, esp in cash where he is likely to run it 18 times AN
foldin QQ is not a good play
No one said it was a good play. It's just the kind of thing Hellmuth did in the mid2000s, or at least had the reputation for doing. It's also why the internet players trashed him relentlessly.
this is the most cowardly attempt at an apology i've ever seen, but kudos to you, you stopped doubling down on it at least
should not have needed anything beyond that video to get humbled
That's one of two televised examples that I cite in which old-school pros had their live reads betray them. Doyle's fold of a higher flush against Jamie Gold on HSP is another.
From my seat, Hellmuth read the amateur for strength, and for good reason – that kid DID think he was strong. The longer Hellmuth took, the more confident Paul Featherstone probably felt about his hand, which in turn discouraged Hellmuth.
Unrelated side note: Paul Featherstone is one of the few people who has a Hendon Mob page with $0 tourney winnings. The PAD tables appear on the database, even if there was no prize money won. Of course, most people who have played on PAD have other winnings. Ken Light, the amateur who said his cards out loud while pondering his decision with Jen Harman, is another such example.
That's one of two televised examples that I cite in which old-school pros had their live reads betray them. Doyle's fold of a higher flush against Jamie Gold on HSP is another.From my seat, Hellmuth read the amateur for strength, and for good reason – that kid DID think he was strong. The longer Hellmuth took, the more confident Paul Featherstone probably felt about his hand, w
People make big laydowns sometimes so if you trawl the internet you'll find people doing it and it being wrong.
but you'll get this somtimes!
People make big laydowns sometimes so if you trawl the internet you'll find people doing it and it being wrong.
but you'll get this somtimes!
Iirc it was ruled he waited too long and was required to add a stroke…thus he technically did not make it. There is a 10 sec rule specifically for such occurrences.
