a chip a chair a rec an aggro reg and fancy play syndrome

Obviously you should’ve bet the 25 on the flop. I’m not even sure how great AQo is to begin with, with these two on your left tbh, at small stakes raked.
EDIT 6+3+2? Damn

AP I don’t see calling 60 as the middleman accomplishing much — hoping for a free showdown if the river bricks? V1 maybe has JXdd? V2 could have 45dd? 33? The joys of being OOP with a shaky hand that could be good…or drawing dead.

It’s probably a fold, as V2 knows V1 is calling, but if you’re going to play on it’s probably a jam. Your call & V1 call make it 296 and you have 300 back.

Grunch:

PRE - seems fine.

FLOP - I think checking range from OOP as the PFR is fine. Also fine when we're multi-way.

TURN - Delayed c-bet seems fine. I'd think we could size up a bit. Maybe even pot it. I'd think we could also check to let one of our opponents stab at it. With our read on V2, I'd think he'd be stabbing at it a lot if action checks to him twice.

As played, he's not repping much. Maybe he gets here with 33, A3s, or possibly 53s. Maybe he checks back 2P+ on the flop, but that wouldn't jive with the read that he's aggro.

I'd be trying to figure out how the turn 3d may have improved his hand or given him more equity, and other than improving 33, A3, and 53, I'd think he picked up some BDFD, with or without anything else going on, but probably weighted towards some sort of 1P + a draw type combo, especially if he blocked some of our thickest value. Maybe something like KJdd, though that seems like a hand he might 3B pre. Maybe QJdd, JTdd, or similar.

He didn't raise very large, considering that V1 called our bet. So we're getting a decent price to call and see the river. Our small bet sizing and V1's call might have induced him to make a play.

I'd have a hard time folding, but I'd think if we call, he'll be putting us to the test with a big river bet whenever he improves, and sometimes when he doesn't. He could also just check back with his SDV, and we win.

So...I could see an argument for 3B'ing, but I'd think we'd mostly be folding out worse and only getting called/raised by better.

I think a better plan may be to call turn, and then donk / block bet river, with a plan to fold if he raises big. Alternatively, we could call turn, and then check-evaluate river, but mostly fold to over-bets.

Some heuristics which may be useful for this spot:

1. ace-high boards tend to be under-bluffed.

2. multi-way pots tend to be under-bluffed.

3. Two-Broadway boards can be over-bluffed, but I tend to think they're over-bluffed when the bettor can have all the best 2P+, but also may have flopped an OESD, which isn't possible on this flop. It seems really unlikely V2 flopped 2P+, and he couldn't flop an OESD.

4. Most low-stakes players under-barrel / bluff rivers and won't bet thin enough on rivers, but I think that's more true when they're the PFR and c-bet the flop. An aggro V may find a two-street bluff when the flop checks through, the pot is small getting to the turn, and the PFR doesn't look nutted.

Also - there's the hungry horse bluff-catching check-list:

Do we beat value? Meh, not much, but we beat SDV that V is turning into a bluff or playing aggressively.

Is V capable? It seems like he likely is.

Did we give him rope? We gave him some, when we checked flop and bet somewhat small on the turn.

Is the bet sizable for the game? The turn bet isn't. We'll see if his river bet is.

Does he have non-SDV? Given our read that he has a wide range pre, and gets to the turn with all of it, yeah, he probably has a ton of non-SDV that he may start turning into a two-street bluff when he picks up equity on the turn.

It just occurs to me that it would make sense to raise a 1P + draw combo if he's trying to avoid a multi-way spot where he's against a better 1P and a better draw, and understands the big increase in equity he'll get if either of his opponents fold.

So, yeah, I think we can call, and depending on what V1 does, we may play the river as a donk-block or a check-evaluate.

Preflop standard. What hasn't been discussed thus far is whether the pot is protected and the River dynamic is better for us than it would be HU.

Flop: Just c-bet and hope someone has a worse Ax or doesn't believe you. There's no point in allowing two players to draw for free. We have range and nut advantage, so I can see range-checking HU but not against 2 Vs.

AP Turn: both Vs have apparently turned equity. We get direct 5-2 on our call of V2's raise - a good price. I agree with Docvail that the lower variance path is just to call. Yes we turn our hand into a bluff-catcher. By checking the flop, we set up this situation.

The counter-argument to calling the raise is that if V1 calls behind us, it will be a ~270 pot with H having ~300 to the river. We would get 2-1 to call down a jam. So we may be better off jamming this Turn ourselves rather than fading half the deck on the river and getting a mediocre MDF call with TPGK or risking an incorrect fold.

It's close but I lean toward calling. The pot is somewhat protected I think. Either Villain must offer 2-1 on a River jam against two opponents. It would be hard for bluffs to get through.

I don't think we can fold here against a LAG - he checked back the flop so really what can he have other than 33? I really can't imagine he called with A3s - either way you said he plays draws aggressively and we have a spot with perceived capped ranges. I would call and only fold to river diamonds.

Some ideas for dealing with type of villain would be playing shortstacked, attempting to play in position far more often than OOP (seat selection) and not building big pots OOP.

I would limp in and evaluate (probably going for a big LRR if this guy raises with some dead money calls). ETA: And with difficult players behind us, it wouldn't be insane to consider lopping off the bottom of our typical playing range in EP, and AQo is the lowest unsuited Ax I play here in normal conditions (so a fold, while obviously on the nitty side, isn't outrageous).

I'm fine with our flop check. Another great way to deal with these villains is to not play so face up, plus make sure our priority is on showing down (not necessarily "betting for value" as we have zero value if we don't showdown).

We could even consider checking the turn for the same reason we checked the flop, especially against this guy who will now read us as fairly weak given our line.

Admittedly gross spot where we may be getting outplayed here, but with sticky V1 still in the hand V2 probably isn't getting OOL as much as we think. I'd probably fold but I fold real easy.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Some info I left out of Original post.

V2 was fairly new to the table and may not have the read that V1 is sticky. V2 should have a read on H considering we have played at the same tables in the past.

What an odd size to raise to, MW. V's pretty much giving sufficient implied odds for V1 to draw. What is a super-aggro V in LP overcalling an open and a whale with too?

Then x-b AJ5r at 11:1 SPR vs the Whale?? Don't they want some $$? EP H has all kinds of Aces/underpairs that might x-call a V2 flop bet. At 11:1, V will need all 3 streets to get the money in vs V1 if they're sandbagging 55. Maybe it's Jx/5x that picked up some equity with the 2nd D and wants H's lower Ax/UPs to run away? But I'd think the raise would be bigger then.

Might be AJs, all one combo of it. Probably calling.

H folds
V1 calls
River ($236) offsuit 2
V1 checks
V2 shoves $380 i think
V1 tank calls
V2 10d 7d for a busted flush draw.
V1 J8o for second pair and the winner.

Had hero called ott, v1 call, river 8c, x x shove, hero call, v1 tank-call then take 10-15 minutes to rack up and leave (which he probably did anyway, right OP?), we’d have a candidate for hand of the year.

The lesson I forgot is: small stakes, high rake, droolers, nit up and play positional abc. I love doc’s posts but these two played exactly to the stereotypes of tourist & reglagtard.

Actually V2 was the one to leave right away. Which I thought was surprising since he normally stays till early in the
morning. V1 stayed for awhile.

I also thought that V2 ran a bluff against the wrong person. I know V2 was new to the table but wouldn’t it make more sense to watch a few hands to get a better read on players. Hell, V1 was playing almost every hand it wouldn’t have taken long to know how sticky he was.

I mean...the bottom line of my long-a$$ post was call turn and donk river.

We do that, we win.

Blueeyelash

The rake here $6 + $2 for promo. I was considered it to be jam or fold. Just couldn’t get myself to get the money in. After the hand V1 said he’s not folding. But I don’t think he stays in if I stay in.

This:

...does not jive with this:

If you call turn, V1 may also call. If you donk river, V1 may or may not call. If V1 calls river, zero percent chance V2 jams as a bluff, and you win.

If you call turn, and V1 folds, maybe V2 jams river as a bluff if you lead, but he'd have to be maniacal. His line wouldn't make sense, given the hands he's repping on the turn. You could have A4s for a straight, or AA, JJ, AJ, A5s, plus A3s or A2s at some lower frequency. If you lead river with all those hands in your range, he's not jamming a busted flush draw, trying to rep a hand that your range heavily blocks and mostly beats.

It's hard to find the scenario in which you lose this hand if you call turn with a plan to lead river.

I doubt many here would have 3B turn, but if you did, you win. If you flat call turn, with a plan to check-call river on a brick, you win.

Easy enough to armchair quarterback this hand from behind a laptop screen, but if our read is super-aggro reg, we can't fold strong TP's when he as much as min-clicks the turn after checking back the flop. We just need to grit our teeth and call down.

If you half-asleep autobet out 25 otf with tp2k on a barren board against two droolers, you also win.

Win less. V1 calls with 2nd pair and folds when we barrel. V2 just folds flop with two unders and back door BS.

Well, then you win the most 3jamming turn, because he’s never folding any fd. Travelin’ Man might even do a fuggit i’m on vacation call too. EDIT actually if v1 has a weak ace especially A2/4 — which seems much likelier than J8o lol — then not jamming turn is a catastrophe.

Despite what others say, flop cbet is not mandatory here. You are OOP on a dry board, and especially since recs and some regs (ok, mostly shitregs) will stab with A weak kicker here.

Turn raise is not too big, you should call.

Ignoring the reveal, a 3B jam likely only gets called by V2's better value, not worse, and maybe only his draws to the nuts.

It's unlikely V2 calls a jam with all his flush draws. If he understands that either of his opponents could have a higher flush draw, he probably folds every draw that isn't to the nuts.

In this spot as hero, we should see that V2 is either raising with better value, possibly hoping to induce a 3B, or a hand that needs one of his opponents to fold for him to not be drawing dead. So his range is basically better value, worse value, and draws that aren't to the nuts.

A 3B jam also likely folds out a ton of V1's range. His 3B-calling range should really just be strong TP or better, and draws to the nuts. His river call with 2nd pair should be viewed through the lens of all the draws bricking out, making his hand a decent bluff catcher in a spot where V2 can be bluffing.

With the benefit of the reveal, it seems like V2 was indeed hoping to fold out higher flush draws when he raised. His smallish size is a clue that he'd probably fold to a 3B.

The consensus seems to be that if H cbets flop V1 calls but will fold turn. V2 folds flop. But after watching V1 I think I can get three streets of value here. I normally check the 4 straight river, but I think he calls down the whole way.

But what about V2? He has two back door draws. Does he float? If so does he still raise the turn?

Doc could you explain the reasoning for calling V2 raise on turn and then leading river? This is Not a move I normally make. Also If V2 is bluffing do you let him bluff again on the river?

And do we thinks v2 shoves river on two opponents? I think he might’ve, he seemed mad at his chips.

I think we almost always have the best hand on the turn. I don't want to raise turn because then they both mostly fold worse, and once in a blue moon call with better. I also don't want to check river, because I think it checks through a lot.

So I'd want to lead out on the river, to target whatever V1 has that called our turn bet. If V2 wants to try to bluff at that point, that would be amazeballs with awesomesauce.

I wouldn't donk on a diamond. I'd want to puke, but I'd probably check-fold when the BDFD comes in. But I'd be betting pretty much any other card.

I'd overlooked your $400 starting stack depth when I first posted. I'm realizing now you'll only have $300 left on the river, a smidge more than a PSB. Bet-fold probably isn't going to work at this stack depth.

If you come out and donk-jam, it'll look weird, but probably not bluffy. Maybe V1 calls. Maybe he doesn't. V2 can't bluff when we have nothing left.

I might jam and pray someone puts us on busted diamonds and hero calls with 1P. I might also bet $100 and pray V2 thinks he can make us fold if he puts us all in. It would be awesome if V1 called the $100 first.

V2 started with $100 more than we did. I suppose there's a world where V2 loses his mind if we bet $100 and V1 calls, then V2 jams for $400 into $500, we call, and V1 over-calls, giving us the full triple up.

I dunno. I guess my basic plan is to check-fold diamonds, and bet bricks. I'll figure out how much I want to bet when we get there.

You were there. You may have seen more than what you included in your OP. Gut feelz are reelz.

That said, I think it's optimistic to expect three streets from V1. Forget that he had Jx. He could have ace-rag. He probably releases at some point if you go bet-bet-jam. The fact that he didn't stab flop suggests he wasn't in love with his hand, at least not until after the flop checks through, leading him to think he may be best.

C-betting flop is at least worth considering. But I like your check better. Let our opponents tell us what they have by their actions. Especially a loose rec who may stab at it with SDV, and an aggro V who acts last and may stab at it with air when it checks to him.

If you c-bet flop, V1 probably calls once and folds to a turn barrel, which I assume would be huge whenever a BD draw appears. V2 probably just folds flop. He shouldn't be over-calling with just a couple back-door draws. His flush draw isn't even to the nuts. It's not a spot where two under-cards to 2nd pair are generally going to float by over-calling.

Your flop check leads to your delayed c-bet on the turn getting less credit, and more calls, especially when the BDFD appears. You could be semi-bluffing with a lot of hands that V1 is beating. Your small sizing obviously can induce raises, which isn't necessarily what we want if we're unsure what to do when we get raised.

Say you c-bet flop and they both call. Are you jamming the turn diamond? How do we know one of them wasn't slow playing a better hand on the flop? The board was pretty dry. No need for either of them to raise. Especially V1. He could be slow-playing to keep V2 in, or give him a chance to raise.

What if we c-bet flop, V1 calls, and V2 raises? It's kind of a $hlt spot, no? Imagine calling that raise, and then V1 back-raises. I'd want to vomit.

But when we check and they both check behind, we can start discounting 2P+ from their range, and confidently make a delayed c-bet for value on the turn.

Say we check, V1 checks, and V2 bets. Fine. Our hand can call, and we don't need to worry about V2 x-raising all that often once he checks behind us. Say V1 bets, and V2 calls. We might not love the direction things are heading in, but we can call and evaluate what we want to do on the turn.

The board texture makes it unlikely our opponents are going to bet huge if we check. So we'll almost always get to see a turn when we check. But if we c-bet and get raised, we may not see the turn.

I'd mostly check this spot regardless of our reads. When we have the reads we do, I think a check becomes even better.