1/3 - facing river pot bet

I think you should be careful
To me it looks like she flopped the flush
Stunned by flopping it and checked flop.
Check flop/bet turn is a strength line.

I would have raised turn, not just because we improved, but to see her reaction. As played, I would call and expect to be beat often.

I recently flopped a flush and was amazed as three players just came along like it was impossible for me to have a flush - won huge pot. Other times, someone breathes on the monotone and everyone folds.

I think you make pretty good reads and know villain well, so I wouldn’t argue with whatever you decide.

I just limp in preflop but that's me.

I check (to fold) this crappy flop.

With a perhaps punty image against her stationy image I think I raise the turn. SPR is 8 and at 100bb stacks I think it is ~ok to go broke in a raised pot here. Although I guess some argument for just flatting and seeing what type of sizing she uses on the river where we can decide then whether to raise. ETA: After re-reading HH1 she seems like a massive fish (she can't beat TPWK to our check/raise + bet and the running flush got there?) so I think I'm leaning towards raise / stack off against her.

I guess facing a PSB on the river I can understand just flatting. Although I feel great about that when running into better but kinda feel horrible about that when running into worse that would have paid off.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Really nothing else to do on the river but call.

My first instinct was a slow played flush or rivered a set. The PSB on River is a bit scary too, which I think makes hands like KQ less likely. Never foidling, but I think I just call here.

I hate folding sets, especially only needing ~33%, and I'm probably not here either versus a V we're told can get bluffy with initiative.

But damn, does this look like a flush. Maybe there's enough BS and AXdx in V's range to sigh call, but I'm not happy about it. If H hadn't given us the read that V can be bluffy with initiative, if she was usually really straightforward, I fold this river (and probably r/f turn) without much regret.

1st to act, 4-ways, I imagine most flushes are starting with a check. AdX might donk at it, now that I think about it. Aaargh, I hate folding sets!

Grunch:

Assuming this is Parx, based on the description, I'm pretty certain I know exactly who this V is. Your description of her buy-in size, and her pre- and post-flop tendencies is spot-on.

It's easy to appear spewy if you run bad when she's at the table, especially if she's the one snapping off your bluffs and taking you to value-town with her razor-thin value bets.

Even if you own her by getting her to call when you bet thin, she has a way of making you feel like you're too aggro, because otherwise she'd fold when she can't beat a meh top pair. You probably had her pipped, and just barely. I mentally marked her as un-bluffable last time I played with her.

No idea what "a bit more subtle" means for her bluffs. I can't remember ever seeing her show a bluff. What few times I *thought* she was probably bluffing, she snap folded to a raise, which jives with the read that she gets sticky when she actually has a hand.

OTTH...

PRE - dude, you MUST open bigger when this V hasn't acted yet. At least make it $15, if not $18 when we're EP and have to get through a parade of opponents.

FLOP - Yeah that's the $hlttiest flop 99 has ever seen. Just check.

TURN - Aight. She's leading out for 60% pot into three opponents. How are you ranging her? Do you think she's doing this with just 1P? What 2P does she have when we have 99?

I don't think she ever has 2P here, because she'd have led out on the flop with 2P.

I mean...pray to all the gods she slow-played 77 or 33 and check-calls river, but I think she'd mostly donk flop with her sets. If she bets river, I think she almost always flopped a flush and slow-played it.

RIVER - why are we never folding vs her? All due respect to you and your reads on her, because I think you nailed 90% of what she's doing, my read is she massively under-bluffs, especially from OOP, across multiple streets, and she LOVES to trap by checking monsters to induce opponents to bet.

I think she literally has zero bluffs here. I think the best case scenario is she's over-playing a lower set, but this is also how she'd play a rivered straight (she has all the QJ here), because she *KNOWS* you don't have flushes here. If she has any bluffs in this line, she was bluffing on the turn, not the river.

Let me make this clear - this girl is a super-reader. Yes, she appears sticky, but that's a mirage. I've seen her go for thin value by betting small from OOP, then snap off chunky river raises with the 8th nuts, because she is smart and capable of seeing when her opponent is FOS (I was her opponent on that one, and I was completely FOS, but thought I could make her fold a thin value hand, because I'm an idiot).

She literally has no bluffs here, and no worse value that will call. This is never KT, T9, or T7. She'd check-call with those hands.

You raised here, didn't you? And she snapped you off, didn't she? And she had a straight or a flush, and not even a high flush, didn't she?

If you had a flush, you'd have c-bet the flop or raised turn. She led turn planning to fold if you raised. She's not folding now, after you flat called turn.

This girl's trophies are adding up. Another head to mount on her wall.

I think we might have a different person.
Though I see her at parx frequently recently but your reads and mine are way different. Not sure how many young asian females there are at parx though(I'd assume very very few?).
I treat her as a huge fish w/some aggro tendencies with no fold button which is my reads from last session which might or might not be correct.

Yea we should go bigger pre
Turn I have no clue of her range hence I called. But I thought for sure on turn I was ahead though because she was so wide.
River is where I was a bit uncomfortable facing such a big bet.

if you raised turn you would have lost out on $100

Okay, I'm pretty sure we're not talking about the same person. I don't think the one I'm thinking about would be value betting T7 on the turn or river.

Re-read the OP, removing the thought that I knew this V...

Just based on population reads, I wouldn't raise river. With the read we have on her, I still wouldn't raise.

I just don't see the point in raising unless we can assign her a range with a ton of worse hands that will get sticky. That's hard to do when both straights and flushes are possible. There are maybe 15 combos of worse sets or offsuit 2P with one diamond.

Her big river bet doesn't make much sense after you call turn next to act, multi-way on a monotone flop. You should have a hand that beats T7 on the river, I'd think. I'd think T7, even with the Td would check, or block bet for a smaller size, planning to fold if you raise.

I'm still not entirely convinced we're not talking about the same person. The girl I'm thinking about might find that line if she thought she had the best hand, but I'm not able to figure out why she'd think that, the way this was played.

I'm thinking about a hand in which I saw her bet river small for thin value and call a raise with 74s that turned a low flush. I'm pretty sure she over-called my raise pre in the BB, and check-called a flop c-bet. I thought it was pretty loose-sticky play on every street but the turn, which checked through.

When she snapped off my bluff raise, a bad reg sitting across from me commented about how good she is. But my thoughts in game were just that she's sticky, I probably didn't raise big enough, and I probably wouldn't check back the turn if I was semi-bluffing on the flop with a FDFD that got there, so my smallish raise over her small bet just looked FOS.

If she's always bet-calling river raises in under-bluffed spots with the 8th nuts, expecting opponents to turn SDV into a bluff, she's going to bleed chips vs the player pool. If my V was also your V, I dunno, but she might have called your raise with T7, for the same reason she called my raise. It doesn't look like you have a nutted hand, and so you could be over-bluffing, or turning worse SDV into a bluff. As the PFR, you can have a lot of AdXx combos here, including some that made 1P.

I’m good preflop and the flop.

After V donks the turn, I’m with GG. I would put V on a lot of Kx and some Adx and Qdx that might call a raise to 75. If she called, I would shove any non-diamond river.

AP, after V bets into hero twice, I’d rule out Kx. You’re still ahead of the sets. I would just call it off.

Just saw results. V is an erratic player. I would call her off even if I held AK.

Re-re-reading this, and again starting to think this is the same V I played against a few weeks back. Our reads and description are too similar. The differences may just be our interpretations of whatever we've seen her do, or adjustments she's making based on her reads of us.

The girl I'm thinking about is petite, shoulder length hair, doesn't wear makeup, I think maybe wears glasses, often wears a black crew neck sweatshirt. Always buys in for $300. Will use her bigger denomination chips when betting, if she's accumulated any.

So... thinking same girl, but playing slightly differently vs me than vs you...

I don't think she thought she was bluffing river. I think she probably knew she was bluffing turn, but she might also have been making a generic probe bet with a sliver of SDV because the flop checked through.

I think she probably would have checked river had she not improved to 2P, which could be best, as played. The big question here is whether or not she'd call a raise.

In the hand I played against her, I think she found a good call because my line didn't make sense, and my sizing was too small. I just 3x'd her weak-looking river bet. I should have gone at least 5x. If I barreled turn and river, I think she may have found the fold with a 7-high flush.

If you jam for less than pot here, she might call with worse, but might not. It's harder for you to be bluffing than it was for me to be bluffing. I'm somewhat surprised she went this thin with so little left behind. I wonder if she was a bit tilted. If so, yeah, she probably calls with worse. But even so, she always calls with better, and it's hard for her to have worse here, in this line.

I think she just doesn't like folding value to a single small raise, even late street raises, which may be under-bluffed generally, but can be over-bluffed in certain lines, like when an opponent takes a capping action on a prior street.

So, I capped myself when I checked back turn on a flush card. She may think you're capped when you check flop and just flat turn. She bet small vs me because it didn't look like I was very strong, and she wanted thin value. Here, she bet big, which I'd think would mean she thinks you have some sort of SDV hand that doesn't beat her 2P. My guess is she put you on KQ+.

You may have missed value, but you didn't risk a punt, either.

It might be the same villain since I'd assume there are very very few young asian females, I personally haven't seen any other besides her? I think I've only seen 1 other hispanic younger female player at the room. All the other female players are way older.
But the reads you have are way way different than mine.
Like you think she could fold 7 high flush... that's like mission impossible for her with my reads.
You think she could fold to a jam with T7 here in this hand, I don't think she's folding if we did jam.
You thought she couldn't bluff, I've seen her bluff.
If she didn't improve to 2pairs, I think she'd follow thru a high percentage but probably not this sizing.

Our reads aren't that much different. You're too zoomed in.

I said I *think* she'd be capable of finding folds when an opponent's line makes sense. In the 7-high flush hand, if I played it the way she'd expect me to play it - c-betting flop, barreling turn, bombing river, I *think* she may have folded.

I don't *know*, because I didn't play it that way, and she didn't fold.

I wouldn't "think* she'd bet T7 for value on the river in this hand, but she obviously did. I wouldn't *think* she'd call a raise, but allowed that she might, in this line, when you're the PFR, with a lot of AK in your range that might play this hand the way you played it.

I didn't say she can't bluff. I said I didn't know what you mean by her bluffs being "subtle", and that when I thought she was bluffing, the bluffs were in spots where she snap-folded to a bet or raise. It makes sense that she was bluffing if she folded, when we know she's sticky with value.

I don't remember enough details about those hands to say for sure, but I'd bet she attempted a bluff in spots where opponents gave her plenty of rope.

We can't know if she would have barreled river without improving, because she did improve.

The turn stab with 3rd pair seems "subtle", in the sense that it's not clear if she thought she was turning 3rd pair into a bluff or if she was just making a generic probe bet that she'd make with her entire range after the flop checks through, regardless of board texture. It's not as if her 3rd pair or her specific combo blocks anyone from having a strong hand.

That's a strange play here, multi-way, on this board, IMO. It's not a spot where I'd think anyone would have any bluffs in her position, and wouldn't be betting 3rd pair. But if they did, I'd think they'd know they were bluffing, in a spot that's typically under-bluffed, for what would seem to be obvious reasons.

Betting river with T7 on this board, unimproved, doesn't seem subtle as all. It just seems stupid.

She's not here. You are. We're trying to help you, not her. Who cares if she shouldn't be betting T7, but did?

The salient point is you probably shouldn't be raising river when she pots it, on this board, not because she may not call with worse, but rather because she shouldn't be betting worse, and will always call with better.

Forget her actual hand. Just consider basic logic. If shes betting fairly thin for value, she's less likely to call a raise. If she's betting thick value, she's more likely to call a raise. Our hand has enough SDV to call. It's not beating enough of her river betting range to warrant raising.

Still looking at and thinking about this hand, seeing more stuff...

Her actions are a mix of plays that are supposed to be bad in theory but might be okay in reality, and plays that might make sense in theory but are debatable the way she's applying them.

For instance, she over-called an EP raise from the SB. Bad in theory, but maybe marginal to ok in practice at low stakes. Seems like an easy fold with T7o, but you did open for a small size. Maybe she thinks the other two opponents are spewy, so she's making a super speculative call.

Also, a turn probe bet with some sliver of SDV after the flop checks through is a higher level concept, but mostly applies when HU and OOP as the PFC when the PFR checks back, capping themselves. It's hard to immediately see the logic in it when we're multi-way, and the PFR checked a monotone flop with two opponents behind. You're not really all that capped here.

This may be giving her too much credit, but if she's thinking ahead, and realizes she can't really call if she checks and someone bets, her turn lead might make some sense as a defensive play, or as a semi-bluff.

It's unintuitive, and most of us would probably just check-fold in her spot. It's not easy to find the logic of betting to protect 3rd pair, or turning 3rd pair into a semi-bluff in this situation. Maybe she knows what she's doing, but it could just be button-clicking.

Like, it seems overly optimistic to think her turn bet is getting through three opponents, even after the flop checks through. It would seem super optimistic to barrel river on a brick, with just 3rd or 4th pair. That would seem to make her turn bet a bluff, but a really weird one, since even if she improves to 2P or trips, she still won't have the nuts.

My best guess is that she put you on KX and was betting river for value after drilling 2P, figuring you'd check back if she checked. She might have sigh-called if you jammed. I just don't see how you can do that on this board, when she can have flushes and straights.

Because we know she'll bet super thin for value, I wouldn't fold your set, but I wouldn't love calling her PSB. I wouldn't expect her to have worse than KT. I'd mostly expect her to have a straight or flush, because I wouldn't expect her to be betting turn into three opponents with worse than TP.

She's tricky to range, because she makes unusual plays. It's not clear if she knows what she's doing or just button-clicking.