What do we think about shoving with queens?
Not a spot, just a question. I've learned the hard way so far that my site's 2nl pool practically never 4bet/5bet jams without the aces or kings. I'm thinking of simply never shoving the queens preflop as a rule (unless someone is really short stacked or I've seen them shove worse) but I wanna see if this is a common experience. Seems like the average 2nl player doesn't jam below kings.
4 Replies
If you have a large enough sample do the following:
filter for 5b jam QQ check whatever allin-adj ev comes out.
filter for 3b fold to 4b check again whatever allin-adj ev comes out.
In my case the first number is close to -700 bb/100
Second number is -900 bb/100
(both the overall for all positions)
so shoving is clearly best.
You can also look at the ev for calling a 4b with QQ but its a bit tricky as you have to distinguish between calling a shove and a smaller 4b, these things are very different. I dont have much of a sample for those scenarios.
And also good to note: both scenarios show a negative number, one is just less negative. And therefor shoving QQ wont feel good as you will be flipping or dominated a decent amount of the time.
And also good to note: both scenarios show a negative number, one is just less negative. And therefor shoving QQ wont feel good as you will be flipping or dominated a decent amount of the time.
Oh wow actually that's really clever. I hadn't considered the possibility it could be shitty but the better of the options anyways.
Interesting, i also asked my self about it recently. I'm playing micro and i don't use stats, so it's hard to know exactly.
Usually i do it, i shove them pre-flop, but i notice that many players 3-bet only with Kings-Aces-Ace-king, so against that range you are coocked.
On the other hand there are player that 3-bet a lot of stupid stuff, and also players that will call your shove ,or shove themselves against a 3-bet, with suited broadway ( Q9 s, QJs, AT o, et cetera) or suited connectors. ( they look at their cards and if they are pretty it's a call.)
I noticed that they tend to shove marginal stuff when 3-betted.
I think that without stats you should have a rough idea of what type of players they are and play on consequences.
4-betting Queens is fine in the micros but if you face a 5-bet from a low VPIP player (under 25-28) you are up against KK or AA 95% of the time with the other 5% being AK.
