The effect of 8-handed tables in Vegas
I put this here because I don't know if anyone else is using 8 handed tables. The initial thought is they're no big deal, just one fewer player per hand and there's more room around the table.
But, in Vegas, at least, they're substantially different than 9 handed tables. The standard number of hold'em hands you get per hour is about 40, right? That's about 4.5 orbits. That's a very important number if you're trying to make a freeroll that requires X number of hours. There are lots of freerolls happening now because of the WSOP coming up.
In the Horseshoe, the times I counted, the 8 handeds are getting about 8 orbits per hour! That's important because it's a measure of how much rake and blinds we pay. I guess you could say blinds are a wash, but it's still a factor in estimating the cost of a certain number of hours played. Why are the 8-handed games moving so fast? It's a matter of how many hands are being made. You need villains to make hands too, to build pots. What I've noticed is with walkers and empty seats, the tables go to 7 and 6 handed fairly often. When they drop to 5 handed, the number of hands being made drops off a cliff. When you can't get at least 2 players making a hand at the same time, the hands go by very quickly, and the game gets very boring. It's more like dealer training to shuffle and deal than players playing. 9 handed games have more "cushion" before they go short.
Right now I know of Horseshoe and Aria that have 8 handed games. At Horseshoe all games are 8 handed. I don't know about Aria. I hope this trend changes after all these freerolls end players are free to quit games when they get boring, instead of people sticking it out to get the hours.
Right now I know of Horseshoe and Aria that have 8 handed games. At Horseshoe all games are 8 handed. I don't know about Aria. I hope this trend changes after all these freerolls end players are free to quit games when they get boring, instead of people sticking it out to get the hours.
I do like 8-handed tables as there is plenty of space, but I can see your point about these games quickly becoming very short-handed. For one, people should have more respect for the longevity of the table and not get up and leave for 20 minutes if 2 people have already been away for a while. As soon as a game gets down to 5-handed people become antsy and wondering if the game is breaking and whether they should leave as well.
This is one of Bart Hanson's pet peeves as well; and I tend to agree with him. I don't care if I have to go to the bathroom or whatever; if the game is only 6-handed I will wait it out until at least one person returns. One time during my most recent trip I was getting ready to leave my game at Aria, but it was only 6-handed with one guy walking. So I made sure to wait until one more seat was filled up and the guy that was walking had returned, before I got up and left. Simply because I didn't want to destroy it for the others, and keep the game alive.
But most of the poker rooms in Las Vegas have moved to 8-handed games, although there are still some that sticks to 9-handed. If I wasn't so lazy I would dig up the actual split and which casinos as running what. But Aria is definitely 8-handed while for example Venetian is 9-handed.
I remember when I first started coming to Vegas and played at Excalibur in 2018 in a 10-handed (!) game. Things are always changing in that regard, but I think the way it is now (with a mixture depending on the rooms) works fine.
Remember rooms like Horseshoe have a high hand promo running daily. I would factor that into how fast the game moves. When I have played those games people are folding and checking to turns and rivers much more frequently hoping to improve to the fullhouse or quads. This means less bets that dealer needs to count and villian needs to think about. Casinos without these promos are probably getting out less hands per hr.
I think your dislike of 8 or less players at the table speaks more of the state of your game. Eight handed games have been the standard in New England since Covid. Having less players at a table should mean more action, not less. If your villains aren't adjusting, it means more profit, not less.
I do like 8-handed tables as there is plenty of space, but I can see your point about these games quickly becoming very short-handed. For one, people should have more respect for the longevity of the table and not get up and leave for 20 minutes if 2 people have already been away for a while. As soon as a game gets down to 5-handed people become antsy and wondering if the game
Wish I had a young man's bladder so I could have your discretion.
WRT 8-handed, when a trend gets popular in Vegas, it's for $$$ reasons. 8-handed gets more hands per hour which equals more raked hands. Unless there's no flop. Hopefully Horseshoe will do some analysis and maybe the unraked hands offsets the advantage they're looking for. As for more player room, ironically I find that people get wider when there's more available space, and I get as many banged knees and feet as before.
I think your dislike of 8 or less players at the table speaks more of the state of your game. Eight handed games have been the standard in New England since Covid. Having less players at a table should mean more action, not less. If your villains aren't adjusting, it means more profit, not less.
If "profit" means $4 in blinds you would be right. But in Vegas, 1/3 dominates the poker rooms, and people will not play a hand unless they have something halfway decent. I've been playing 150 hours to make the freeroll requirement, and trust me, when the table gets down to 5, people are not playing much. Sometimes they'll play big vs small blind because there's no chopping at Horseshoe. But it takes 2 people to have a hand for a hand to get played. When the table gets short, good hands are hard to find on the table.
so tables packed with promo nits all chasing the same freeroll have no action?
color me shocked
Wish I had a young man's bladder so I could have your discretion.WRT 8-handed, when a trend gets popular in Vegas, it's for $$$ reasons. 8-handed gets more hands per hour which equals more raked hands. Unless there's no flop. Hopefully Horseshoe will do some analysis and maybe the unraked hands offsets the advantage they're looking for. As for more player room, ironically I fin
Steal, steal, steal!
But it takes 2 people to have a hand for a hand to get played. When the table gets short, good hands are hard to find on the table.
you really do post like a nit about anything to do with poker. hard not to assume that you're one of the promo chasing nits you complain about
winning poker is about adjusting successfully to your opponents. If people are overfolding then open up your range & take the blinds more?
$4 per hand would be a handsome win rate. an extra $4 per orbit would make a huge difference to anyone at 1/3's win rate
also, there's no way that any poker room I've ever played would get 45 hands an hour. My guess would be more like 30
my room has been 8 handed for years. I love it.
more room to stretch out & more hands to play because ranges open a little
even better when it's 7 or 6 handed
I put this here because I don't know if anyone else is using 8 handed tables. The initial thought is they're no big deal, just one fewer player per hand and there's more room around the table.But, in Vegas, at least, they're substantially different than 9 handed tables. The standard number of hold'em hands you get per hour is about 40, right? That's about 4.5 orbits. That's a v
The effect is more from nit promos like hours freerolls and high hands than 8 vs 9 handed tables. With hours freerolls, players are there to fold to get hours. With high hands, a lot of them are checking to make high hands. Hours freerolls and high hand promos make for bad nit games. Outside of this wsop hours promo, promo rooms would be better by canceling nit promos and offering action-inducing promos like hourly cash prize raffles for made straights and flushes. It would get more players chasing straights and flushes.
Aria is also 8 handed and it offers no nit promos, so the action must be better there with no nit promo chasers than at the Horseshoe. The Wynn doesn't offer nit promos either. I did an hours freeroll promo once before, and never again.
What would also help the 8 handed tables from becoming too short is the 3rd man walking rule that some poker rooms have. A 3rd person who goes away from the table gets his chips picked up. So tables hardly ever get too short in those rooms.
What would also help the 8 handed tables from becoming too short is the 3rd man walking rule that some poker rooms have. A 3rd person who goes away from the table gets his chips picked up. So tables hardly ever get too short in those rooms.
I agree that rooms in Vegas should have third man walking rules.
yes, I really like that rule
I know that the OP's premise was 8-handed in cash games, but I'll tweak the discussion.
In all likelihood, I will be playing in an 8-handed NLH tournament at the upcoming WSOP. I am looking forward to seeing the difference of 8-handed versus 9-handed. I've never played in an 8-handed tourney, so I'm eager to see how well I adapt to the small difference.
you really do post like a nit about anything to do with poker. hard not to assume that you're one of the promo chasing nits you complain aboutwinning poker is about adjusting successfully to your opponents. If people are overfolding then open up your range & take the blinds more?$4 per hand would be a handsome win rate. an extra $4 per orbit would make a huge difference to an
Am I complaining about promo chasing nits? I think you're thinking about someone else. If anything, I'm complaining about the casino decision to run 8 handed tables.
I know that the OP's premise was 8-handed in cash games, but I'll tweak the discussion.
In all likelihood, I will be playing in an 8-handed NLH tournament at the upcoming WSOP. I am looking forward to seeing the difference of 8-handed versus 9-handed. I've never played in an 8-handed tourney, so I'm eager to see how well I adapt to the small difference.
The difference in tournaments should be much smaller than with cash games, because they have paid to enter, and there are scheduled breaks. Also, blind steals are worth a lot more than four dollars.
Taking an ante from the stack (e.g $2 in 1/3 game) for every big blind missed would quickly stop people leaving the table at their leisure and not be a big penalty to someone who needs to step away for a few minutes.
Personally I'm not so bothered about playing short handed, but it does annoy me when a game breaks or potential weaker players are blocked from sitting because someone has gone for dinner
The "steal the blinds" thing won't work here. You make it 12, so sb folds, bb calls, and ... you both are neg EV. 2 for promo, 2 for drop, 1 for dealer, 5 out of the maybe 15 profit means 33% rake. You both lose.
Also, a lot of houses don't reduce rake at 6 or 7, and even 5 handed might be 2 and 1. It's brutal. It isn't about making a strategy adjustment, that won't work with so much coming out of small pots. The goal becomes "win as few pots as possible, " which I say tongue in cheek, but you probably understand.
That's the downside, the upside is any promo that attracts the nits helps the other rooms.
My local game is TEN handed. Yes, they hate us.
Can't wait to play 8 handed in Vegas. It's awesome.
What would also help the 8 handed tables from becoming too short is the 3rd man walking rule that some poker rooms have. A 3rd person who goes away from the table gets his chips picked up. So tables hardly ever get too short in those rooms.
I agree that rooms in Vegas should have third man walking rules.
I hate them unless "walking" is defined as missing a blind. Two people go to dinner and you pick up the guy that needs to go to the bathroom.
I wonder what the HPH was at the height of COVID when Caesar's was 5-max - those games were incredible
I hate them unless "walking" is defined as missing a blind. Two people go to dinner and you pick up the guy that needs to go to the bathroom.
I also like the dinner priority waiting list rule. Two people want to go to dinner, they pick up their chips, they get placed at the top of the waiting list for an hour, their seats get filled, and when they come back, they're 1st up to be seated. That way the table isn't 4 handed when 2 players happen to want to get up to go to the restroom when 2 people go to dinner.
8 handed games do have an impact on how many hands you can play in raked games for sure. Fewer people = fewer limpers, and playing a single raised pot HU and having most if not all of the rake taken on the flop makes for a decent hurdle to overcome.
Luckily my main game is a time game, so none of that applies. But I do play in a small ecosystem game, where a game breaking is a much bigger deal because there aren't other games to jump into at the same limit. And my game has one regular who takes an orbit smoke break almost every 30 minutes. So I try to take a break only if the table is full, and if it is 6 handed or less I basically won't get up unless I let everyone know I'll be back ASAP. Many times I don't miss a hand from when I get into the game for 4+ hours because I play once a week, and don't want the game to randomly break on me, so I do everything in my power to keep it running. As a big winner in the game, that is a small sacrifice I must make, being slightly inconvenienced at times (or jogging to and from the bathroom) to keep the game available to me.
All winning players *SHOULD* be aware of this and other soft skills necessary to keep a game going.
Taking an ante from the stack (e.g $2 in 1/3 game) for every big blind missed would quickly stop people leaving the table at their leisure and not be a big penalty to someone who needs to step away for a few minutes. Personally I'm not so bothered about playing short handed, but it does annoy me when a game breaks or potential weaker players are blocked from sitting because som
It would also be potentially illegal. Casino can’t legally forcibly take money from you. It must be voluntary. They could puck you up unless you agree to them taking money. But they cant assume your agreement
I actually really like his idea and there has to be a way around this, if what you're saying is true. In tournaments you have to pay your blinds whether you're seated or not. Why shouldn't it be this way in cash games?
They could make you "commit" $20 or something to leave for a break (amount will vary depending on stakes). Then they take blinds from that and if you're still not back after the pre committed amount is blinded out, then they pick up your remaining chips and give the seat to someone else.
IMO 8-handed games are generally preferable to 9-handed. If you have an edge more hands is better, not worse. The problem is too many players are habitually absent from the game, and I agree that once you get down to 5-handed or less there are too many small pots where BB defends, PFR cbets flop and takes it down, and the rake eats everyone alive. Then another player or two doesn't want to play anymore and the game breaks.
I think almost everyone is happy with an 8-handed game, and the main problem is just that it gets down to 4 or 5 handed quicker than a 9-handed game. If you charged blinds whether a player is there or not all the missing players would magically be at the table most of the time. How often do you see absent players in tournaments?
