Flat call pre / donk flop / snap-call when they whiff with AK - what is this line?
I feel like I'm seeing this at least once or twice a session recently. No idea what it is or why it seems to be happening more.
Hero will raise with some hand from some position. V will flat call in the blinds with AK, then come out on donk on the flop when they completely whiff.
Hero will raise the flop (because very often, we also whiffed), and V will snap-call the raise, with no pair, and no draw.
Last session, I opened KJs on the BTN. V flatted in the SB with AK, then donked for 1/2 pot on J55rb. I over-bet jam because he's short-stacked, he snap calls, then drills an ace on the turn.
Session before, I open A9s in the CO. V flats in the BB with AK, then donks 1/2 pot on 875rb. I raise 3x. He snap calls. Turn 9, completing the rainbow and putting a one-liner to a 6 on board. He checks, and I decide to check back with my SDV. River is a K, he donks for 60% pot. I call because I figure he just has 8x at best, or total air, and we beat all that.
Is anyone else seeing this? Any idea why recs are flatting with AK pre, donking the flop when they have no pair and no draw, and snap-calling a raise from an uncapped PFR?
I've been thinking about it. I sort of understand flatting with AK pre, because "it's a drawing hand", but I don't get how they make the logical leap to turning AK into a donk-bluff when they just completely whiff. I really don't get how they snap-call a raise.
13 Replies
So you’re confused when opponents put in lots of money with a 3 outer?
They are probably confused when you’re dominated pre and then drill your own 3 outer.
You’ve been around here long enough not to put any stock into random spazzes.
So you’re confused when opponents put in lots of money with a 3 outer?
They are probably confused when you’re dominated pre and then drill your own 3 outer.
You’ve been around here long enough not to put any stock into random spazzes.
I'm confused when they donk with no pair and no draw, and snap call a raise.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
It's an interesting way to play AK, I've thought about doing that myself. Bc: if you flat call then flop a pair, you have the deception of under repping your hand. Meanwhile if you whiff but the board doesn't look like it helped your opponent, you can represent a preflop calling hand.
I think the logic breaks down when you're probably only getting weaker hands to fold to your donkbet, or else your opponent (doc) puts the pressure back on you. These Vs in the example hands are cool as ice.
It's an interesting way to play AK, I've thought about doing that myself. Bc: if you flat call then flop a pair, you have the deception of under repping your hand. Meanwhile if you whiff but the board doesn't look like it helped your opponent, you can represent a preflop calling hand.I think the logic breaks down when you're probably only getting weaker hands to fold to your do
You misspelled dumb as rocks.
It actually sounds good
Flat in the blinds, then when the board favors your perceived range - attack
Villain thinks you have a pair of eights when the king turns & never suspects.
The donk part & snap call make no sense, but the general idea - I mean it’s hard to play OOP
Could be a good change-up
Can’t say I see your example happening
What I see is people blasting off with AK firing all the streets without a pair.
I see (more than I ever expected) calling all streets with 33 even though the board’s all paint.
It actually sounds goodFlat in the blinds, then when the board favors your perceived range - attackVillain thinks you have a pair of eights when the king turns & never suspects.The donk part & snap call make no sense, but the general idea - I mean it’s hard to play OOPCould be a good change-upCan’t say I see your example happening What I see is people blasting off with AK firin
I'd challenge anyone to logically explain why it's good to flat pre with AK, and then donk flop with no pair and no draw, and call a raise.
The flat call pre - fine, we're OOP, it's a drawing hand, we're under-repped when we flop TPTK, whatever.
The donk in a HU pot with nothing - makes no sense. It's actually worse than that. AK actually has some sliver of SDV and can float vs a c-bet, or stab turn when the PFR checks back the flop. It would be better to donk with a hand that might be best and benefits from equity denial, or a hand that has less SDV but more equity to improve, or can improve to a nutted hand.
The snap call when the PFR raises - completely baffles me. AK is a 6-out draw to a 1P hand. They're OOP, making it harder to realize their equity or extract max value even if they spike TP on turn or river.
If they're flatting pre hoping to flop TPTK, the donk would seem to be a pure airball bluff, hoping the PFR just folds. But what is the PFR folding? Probably not TP or better. We're mostly just folding hands that are worse than AK, which goes back to why AK can float when we c-bet. Logically, they should fold to the raise when it looks like they're beat and have no SDV.
Overall, I think the Vs in your post are reacting specifically to your play, and not acting this way generally. I think they view you as very LAGgy, if not downright Banana-like, and you'll get light calldowns as a result. This is awesome for your value lobe, BTW, as HH #1 shows. (Sorry you lost.)
I also don't think most of your Vs have a unified plan for their hands, nor even a consistent rubric for planning different parts of their ranges. I wonder if it's psychological: they don't want to check, because it'll induce a stab, they don't want to block bet-donk smaller, because you won't fold, and it's just setting money on fire, so they donk out larger and see if that'll make you fold.
But they also think you're FOS a lot of the time: AA-QQ is hard to make, "Would he really have shoved top boat here?," "He probably doesn't even have a pair, and we have the top non-pair hand," Etc. So they'll call a raise lighter than normal. Maybe taking SPR into account; maybe not?
On 875r, sure you can have and open all of the combos that make 2P+, but you're evidently doing these flop raises a lot also with a lot of crap that whiffed, and they're reacting to that. I dunno if calling their donks, then choosing turn to raise big will make them any less sticky.
TL,DR: Your image won't allow you to get bluffs through this group, but is fantastic for getting paid with your value. Unfortunately, they're also now semi-bluffing wider than normal. IMHO, out of fear that if they leave the betting to you, it'll cost more, and they evidently can't pick a better freeze-bet sizing.
On 875rb I had two overs with a GSSD and a BDNFD, and I'd think a range advantage, if not also a nut advantage, though maybe not vs the typical loose-passive BB defend range. My read on V was that he's sticky, so if he has a pair or a draw he's not folding to the flop raise, but will fold by the river to continued aggression if he doesn't improve. If I didn't turn SDV with TPTK, I'd have barreled, fairly certain he'd fold.
The logic you're giving them credit for seems reasonable, but I wonder if you may be giving them too much credit. In every instance when I've seen this play, V was a pretty big rec-fish.
My thinking has been that they know AK is a good starting hand, but they don't feel comfortable 3B'ing from OOP. Then, when they whiff the flop, there's some form of entitlement tilt that drives them to turn AK into a low equity bluff. They just want to see a cheaper turn. And maybe I'll check back the turn and they'll get to see the river.
There probably is some degree of thinking I'm FOS when I raise, which leads them to float wide. I don't think it makes sense in theory land, because if they want to float they could just check-call and see the turn for cheaper, assuming I'm not c-betting huge. They have to be worried that I would c-bet huge, and they'd prefer to freeze me by donking 1/2 pot. But then, when I raise, if they're scared, they should fold.
Like, their donk is a bluff, isn't it? If you were bluffing with air, no draw, and barely any SDV, and got raised, wouldn't you fold?
I dunno. They seem to be caught in some sort of logical cul-de-sac. That's why I posted this.
I understand them not being comfortable 3B'ing from OOP. I think I sort of understand them trying to stop me from c-betting by donking. I'm really struggling to understand the snap call when I raise, with no pair and no draw. I'd get it if they had any sort of value or a draw. I don't get it when they just have ace high.
On the AJ hand, since V was short he's going to find a way to get it AI. On that flop AK is probably a favorite vs. your range and he's figuring worst case he's got 6 live outs.
On the A9 hand V made the correct play every time while you made the incorrect play every time. Flatted OOP with the best hand. Donked the flop with the best hand. You raised with the lesser hand and he called with the best hand. On the turn V correctly checked with the lesser hand while you checked with the better hand. On the river V bet with the best hand while you called with the lesser hand.
Maybe he had your number, maybe he was just crazy lucky. Or anything in between. Personally, I think you played the AJ hand properly while playing the A9 hand very poorly.
It was KJ.
Have to disagree with the critique of the A9 hand.
I raised pre from LP with a decent suited ace. V flat called with a better hand, when he could have raised.
He turned the best hand into a bluff on the flop. I had a hand with reasonable equity to improve, so I decided to semi-bluff, figuring I was behind his value range.
The turn brought in a straight. I could have AA and 2P+. His hand is a decent bluff catcher, but he basically turned it into a bluff by leading out. I was bluff catching with a reasonable bluff catcher.
V played it poorly on every street, IMO. I think my thought process was solid on every street.
First guess is you are trying to find a pattern in complete randomness.
Flatting pre. with AK is pretty std. at 1-2/1-3 ... sometimes it's even solver approved, but that's not the reason they are doing it.
Random spazz calls postflop with overs to the board isn't unusual either. Random spazz donks also not that surprising, esp. if they have a "good" hand that missed.
Recently played where a guy sat down and straddled 2nd hand, overcalled my 4-5x straddle open from EP with 73o and the flop was 773. Just called a small flop bet but completely gave it away by donk/3bet on a turn 9 ... why did he do any of it? Were there any thoughts at all on any street? Who knows but I'm not planning on wasting many of my life units trying to find out.
Sometimes they shake the magic 8 ball, do what it says and it looks like genius. That's why there's way more money in poker than chess.
