1/2, would this be a preflop 4-bet squeeze?
1/2 at the ol' VFW. The preflop three-bettor is a college kid who's been moved from a broken table; I know nothing else about him. The coldcaller would be an OMC except 1) he prefers Sprite and 2) he's capable of pulling a trick or two out of his bag. $500 effective.
I open QQ to $13 from the button. College Kid reraises to $50 from the small blind. OMS calls from the big blind. I 4-bet to $150 . . .
13 Replies
Looks good to me.
Grunch from thread title alone: No. No one has a 3!/fold range in a 1/2 game.
OK, off to read OP.
Post grunch. Yeah, might be a 4-bet for value, but not really a squeeze. How are you responding if he shoves? We're pretty deep to be calling it off hoping for AK, and pretty much hate life betting 30% of our stack and folding. I prefer a flat closing the action, giving us some room to maneuver 3-ways with an SPR of just over 3.
1/2 at the ol' VFW. The preflop three-bettor is a college kid who's been moved from a broken table; I know nothing else about him. The coldcaller would be an OMC except 1) he prefers Sprite and 2) he's capable of pulling a trick or two out of his bag. $500 effective.I open QQ to $13 from the button. College Kid reraises to $50 from the small blind. OMS calls from the big b
Seems fine on the surface. We're incentivized to 4B after OMS cold calls.
But that's the worst thing about the situation. Why do I feel like he cold called with a monster, and he's about to back-jam over our 4B?
I dunno. If they both fold we obviously had the best hand. I wouldn't like getting stacks in with either of them if one of them 5B-jams over the top.
If we flat call we'll hate life if the flop isn't low-low-low, but I think we could flat the 3B pre and plan to fast play our hand post. As long as the board is all cards below 9 and not monotone, I think we'd have the best hand a lot if they both check to us.
Those old dudes love to trap. I try to remember not to over-play my over-pairs as the PFR when one of these old codgers is in the pot. I'll wait until the turn to start firing.
If their 5! range is exclusively KK+, and they never 5! bluff, we should be 4!/f Queens, and to a size we're OK with folding. This is for value.
Popping to 30%-1/3 of our stack seems fine. They jam, we fold, confident they're never doing it with like A4s etc. They call, we get it in on any non-K/A-containing flop. Occasionally, H still loses, but I can't imagine KK+ wants to go multiway either.
If we want to call, IP, closing the action, OK too.
I think when old man sprite calls, I’m happy to flat in position. The problem with 4Bets is when it gets called or raised. It’s also not great with a valuable hand like this, when everyone folds.
By calling, you are not alerting anyone about the strength of your hand. You get to see what happens & close the action the rest of the way. I think you make more money this way.
Not many worse hands will call a 4Bet, so you likely end it right now, which is not terrible as you win 100.
Very clear 4bet based on positions and action so far:
1. You are/should be opening wide from the button;
2. SB should/may well be 3betting wide from SB;
3. BB is probably bad and has put in dead money, very likely with a hand you are way ahead of (JJ-99, AQ) or a hand which you are OK against (AK);
4. You are happy to increase the size of the pot with your strong hand and position;
5. SB may be worried about the BB so may be less likely to come over the top;
6. There's plenty of dead money;
7. QQ is not a hand to play multiway;
8. You have QQ for goodness sake.
You're perfectly happy if you get folds. You're happy if one player folds and the other calls. You're not desperately happy if they both call, but you're not devastated as you probably have the best hand. If BB backjams (regardless of SB action) then you can fold. If SB jams and BB calls you can decide whether to gamble (I would, you'd be devastated to see them both turn over AK). If SB jams and BB folds you'd probably have to come back to positions and the fact that everyone should be wider here, and call.
Very clear 4bet based on positions and action so far
You're perfectly happy if you get folds.
I have been obsessed with value and none of the crowd I play with is calling that 4bet - you might see a 5bet jam that you should probably fold to. I have the kids, old men too - regs shuffling thru - maybe if they were newbies
It’s not even about the bet-sizing, the population sees the 4Bet as AA or KK and gets out of the way. It’s probably different online.
I do think there will be a few AK calls, so you might get a flip.
Smooth and both villains have put in 25bbs with no idea how strong you are. They will put in more - it’s clear this is a better way to build a bigger pot with less risk.
Very clear 4bet based on positions and action so far:1. You are/should be opening wide from the button;2. SB should/may well be 3betting wide from SB;3. BB is probably bad and has put in dead money, very likely with a hand you are way ahead of (JJ-99, AQ) or a hand which you are OK against (AK);4. You are happy to increase the size of the pot with your strong hand and position;
I generally agree with most / all of the reasoning here. My only reservation is the read that V can get tricky, and this specific situation is making my spider sense tingle.
Not looking to make a real argument about how QQ plays multi-way. But if we are up against two AK combos, we're actually doing slightly better than if we were heads up vs just one combo of AK. It's like a 3% increase in equity, so not enough to dramatically change the incentives here, hence why I don't think it's an argument worth having.
The other thing that gives me pause is the 4B size vs stack size. We don't like going too small when BB cold calls the $50, but we also hate raising to $150 off $500 and then folding to a 5B jam.
Lastly, if we think neither opponent is going to fold AK pre, and they might 5B jam pre, I don't mind seeing a flop and just ejecting if it comes ace or king high. If we think eitherV is capable of checking AA/KK to us on the flop, I don't mind checking back and seeing a turn. Generally, since we'll act last post flop, I don't think we necessarily have to 4B pre.
If our read is that BB is just terrible, yeah, I'm 4B'ing this all day, and probably calling if SB jams.
...The other thing that gives me pause is the 4B size vs stack size. We don't like going too small when BB cold calls the $50, but we also hate raising to $150 off $500 and then folding to a 5B jam...
Lastly, if we think neither opponent is going to fold AK pre, and they might 5B jam pre...
Why do we hate folding QQ to a 5!, if---as most everyone here insists when the topic arises---they almost never do it with AK-? If they do shove with AK, OK that's different, but they almost never do in the games described here. (God forbid H advocates 5'ing! AKs in a thread to a LL V's 4!)
Here, the 5! will either be a 3!-5! shove, which tbh, I can see a college kid doing OOP with AK, as well as other stuff which thumps H. QQ is a 60/40 dog to QQ+/AK. I think H is pretty close to priced in to call that off. Or a coldcall 2 bets-backraise jam from old-timer tricky. Fine, fold to that guy.
If they call AK to our 4!, awesome: H is getting money in while ahead in that case, and perhaps ahead to their overall range(s).
Maybe? I bought in for $500 and was around there. OMS always buys in for $300 but doubled up not too long ago, ironically when his QQ > AA. College Kid, annoyingly, had his money divided into a sad skyline of sundry-sized stacks. Tracking opponents' stack sizes is something I'm actively working on as hands develop, because I've left too much money on the table making $100 river value bets into villains who only have $160 in front of them. But preflop I really only have the ability to look at a pile of chips and go "eh, it's around there" unless it's rigidly stacked.
I wanted to raise to enough to be capable of calling a shove from College Kid (if he ever has AQ or JJ I'm at least getting my money in decent) and folding to an OMS backjam (it's KK or AA ~always).
Spoiler
Both of them folded, with OMS showing A♥ K♥. College Kid said he folded AJ. OMS rabbit-hunted and the flop came clean for QQ, so I probably wasn't earning another dollar above the $100 I cashed in immediately by 4-betting.
Why do we hate folding QQ to a 5!, if---as most everyone here insists when the topic arises---they almost never do it with AK-? If they do shove with AK, OK that's different, but they almost never do in the games described here. (God forbid H advocates 5'ing! AKs in a thread to a LL V's 4!) Here, the 5! will either be a 3!-5! shove, which tbh, I can see a college kid doing O
Not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, or if you're misunderstanding me, or perhaps just over-looked some aspect of what I posted. So, I'm going to guess what you're asking and take a stab at an answer...
1. As a general rule we're not supposed to raise to 30% of our stack and then fold to another raise. So, just based on that, it would suck to raise to $150 off $500 and then subsequently fold to a 5B, which I assume would just be a jam at this stack depth.
2. If either of our opponents 5B jams, we have to ask what his 5B jamming range is. I said I'd call it off if the college kid in the SB moved all in. I think he's going to have a worse hand often enough. But I'd hate to call it off if the old man in the BB back-jams, because I doubt he'll ever have worse than QQ/AK if he back-5B-jams, so at best we'd be flipping, and very often we'll be dominated.
3. Hypothetically, if BB did 5B jam here, with AK, it would be a disaster if we folded. Not simply because we had the best hand, but also because we put 30% of our stack in, in position, when we could have just flat called, in a spot where we may want to consider how tight BB is cold-calling a 3B before we 4B. and then he back-5B-jams.
Sorry if that last point isn't entirely clear. The point I was making in my first post is that before we 4B here, we should pause long enough to think about what the "tricky" old man in the BB is doing when he cold-calls a 25BB 3B in a 1/2 game at the VFW.
If our read is that he's tricky, I'd be leery of 4B'ing QQ here. Hell, even without that read, I'd be leery, at this stack depth, when we're IP and can just smooth call and see a flop with an under-repped hand.
Like, what the hell range cold-calls a 3B in the blinds, if our opponent is remotely competent? If he's not terrible, he shouldn't have ANY cold-calls here. When he does cold-call, all my alarm bells start going off.
I said in the post you quoted that our QQ isn't doing too bad if they both have AK. Sure enough one had AK, and the other AJ. We were actually a modest favorite, and probably would have gotten more value for our hand if we flat called pre. There has to be some frequency of SB c-betting and/or BB stabbing if SB checks flop.
Low stakes players will often flat call a raise or 3B from the blinds with AK. But they're not necessarily planning to fold to a 4B. They're often just going to get it in. If the BB's back-jamming range is just AA/KK/AK, our QQ isn't doing great. Even if they're only back-jamming with AK, we're just flipping for stacks.
I don't want to flip for stacks when we're in position. I'd rather play poker. Let's flat call, see a flop, and either save our stack when the flop comes ace or king high, or get it in on the low-low-low flop and put AK in a $hlt spot after whiffing but still having some SDV versus our bluffs.
Even if the SB 5B-jams, he can have AA/KK. And if he's a studied player, he may know that his 5B jam is going to get called by us more often after the BB cold-calls his 3B, because when we 4B, the SB has an incentive to push BB out of the pot.
The situation is different if our read is that BB is just terrible. In that scenario, I'm less concerned about 4B'ing, because I think A) SB is going to be 3B'ing with a wider range and 5B-jamming with a wider range, and B) BB isn't going to be cold-calling the 3B with devious plans of back-jamming if we 4B.
All in all, I don't think it's a massive error to just over-call the 3B when we'll act last post flop, and we'll have the best relative position to the 3B'er. We can flat pre, and the SB will be in a $hlt spot if he doesn't smash the flop. We don't have to 4B here.
