What to make of turn donk on double paired board?
Played this hand in a home game last night. Just curious what others make of my opponent's line...
1/3 with frequent UTG straddles of $5 or $10. We're 9 or 10 handed. V has $300 to start the hand. Hero covers.
No reads on V. Never seen him before. He's white, maybe 30, clean cut, wearing khakis and dress shoes, like he came to the game straight from the office. We just got to the game so we haven't seen enough hands to know how he plays.
PRE - V opens from EP for $15. Hero 3B's to $50 from LP with TT. Folds back to V and we're HU to the flop.
FLOP ($100) - 833rb.
V x. Hero $35. V calls.
TURN ($170) - 833rb 8, I think adding a BDFD.
V doesn't think too long, then donks for $90. Hero has no idea what V is repping, but it's 1/2 pot and we have an OP, so we call.
RIVER ($350) - just a brick. Can't remember what it was, but didn't complete the flush, and wasn't an over-card to our T's.
V pauses a few seconds, then jams for $125.
Hero?
Anyone seen this line often enough to have some idea what V's range is? Other than FD's, AX combos, and maybe some PP's below an 8, it's hard to find V's bluffs. Other than 88, A8s, and A3s, it's hard to find his value.
23 Replies
Well, long time ago, I've played a hand vs an aggro fish
It was also a 3bet pot. We were the 3bettor ip.
Flop was like Q82r we cbet small v x/c
Turn was 8, V donks jam huge, pot or over pot. We tank called w/JJ, v shows 99????
As for your hand, I don't think people bluff enough in such spots. Unless V is an aggrotard.
As for the value hands range, 3x, 8x, QQ+
As for bluffs, if he's aggro I guess he can turn his whole range that he floated on the flop. pp, overcards, random nonsense.
He should have 0 3x. Some 8x which really ''should'' only be 87s and 88 and then overpairs. His line funnily enough would be completely fine(ignoring sizing) with most pairs, including QQ/JJ.
Yes, I understand saying ''He should have 0 3x'' is silly considering it's a home-game and villain could be a whale. We got 0 reads so this is all I can go by.
I don't really expect to see bluffs here, if he did have some it'd be like AK/AQ but I'm also not sure I can fold TT here vs a total unknown. Might pay the $125 just because I'm too curious lol. Might run into 99, could be QQ/87s.
Against an unknown I don't think a flat would be horrible preflop (facing an EP raise, there's no other dead money in the pot / equity to deny, sounds like we'll already mostly have position, we'll probably hate most runouts with this hand and unlikely we'll want to play for stacks, etc.).
SPR is 2.5 and we haz an overpear. Committed for stacks? The problem is bigger pears are always easily in the mix.
Anyhoo, on a drawless board I'm fine with a small bet to simply protect against overs.
Also just calling the turn.
I mean, are we really up against 99 enough? And does 99 really take this line enough? I probably just sigh fold although that kinda seems bad at this SPR / price.
But overall kinda one of the reasons I might prefer a flat preflop against an unknown, in that we pretty much got one of the better runouts we could get with an overpear in a small SPR pot and we're still not comfortable committing.
GcluelessNLnoobG
im not folding the river vs an unknown 30 year old guy for these odds.
pf is probably better as a flat in these positions.
I don't necessarily think this is too many outright bluffs but V has to know the 8338 is not a great board for you. I could/have seen pairs under the 8 play this way, possibly going for value/protection against you having AK, AQ, KQ etc.
Could also be JJ for the same reason. But with the pot size on the turn I ain't folding, and might shove it there.
I guess I'm looking for some range that makes logical sense to donk out when the board pairs.
His boats are just letting me off the hook when I have ace high. His AX may just be trying to push me off a chop, but I'm probably not folding any of my over-pairs.
He shouldn't have any 3x here, and I'd think at his starting stack depth he doesn't really show up with much 8x in a 3BP.
It wouldn't seem to make sense for him to turn a PP into a bluff.
So it either seems like random BS, or he's just being super face up with nutted value.
I guess I'm looking for some range that makes logical sense to donk out when the board pairs. His boats are just letting me off the hook when I have ace high. His AX may just be trying to push me off a chop, but I'm probably not folding any of my over-pairs. He shouldn't have any 3x here, and I'd think at his starting stack depth he doesn't really show up with much 8x in a 3BP.
a young guy will show up here with random BS alot. i think ace high makes up a lot of his range, trying to get you off of a chop or just randomly spazzing out.
once people put in this much of their stack by the turn its often inevitable the rest is going in on the river.
Honestly don’t know your style or image, which could have something to do with this hand. Is villain attacking a perceived OMC? It doesn’t take much of a reason for some young players to get aggressive.
Your description reads to me like inexperience, but you must have some idea of the savvy of this player. I can usually separate the ‘young guns’ wanting to play me, from the usual passive subjects.
No math involved here, it’s ‘all read’ based and a tough decision. I would suggest that if you don’t put the money in here, you should not have raised pre-flop. Raise/jamming the donk bet seems in line what you see on the surface, but I can understand scratching your head at this play.
If there’s a bunch of limpers with a threat of multi-way, I like your pre-flop raise. If it looks like nobody is interested but villain, I probably call pre-flop.
Does villain think you’re going to check-back the turn, so he’s betting value?
Does villain think ‘wow, I’ve got an eight’ and starts firing?
Even with limited exposure, I think I could separate villain into one of these categories. Calling the savvy player all day long, but the rec player basing his game on his cards only, I could probably find the fold.
I don’t like hands like this (why I prob call pre), because I simply don’t want to put my stack in the middle with so much uncertainty. A big risk over-rides my equity here, because I am going to win this session, but not without my stack.
So, my decision point is the donk bet.
I think a big donk bet is likely underbluffed by the population, so I could fold here. But if it’s one of those over-confident, smart alec young players trying to run me out of the pot, I call
And of course, I could be totally wrong with limited exposure to villain. Either way, I would not sweat a decision like this. Make a play and on to the next.
Vs line is super weird. Some players call 3bets pretty wide, like even AA to trap. JJ and QQ makes sense. He could have the one combo of 88. What hands does hero beat? Does V ever donk with 99?
Doc has a good bullshit detector. Is V spazzing with a AK, AsJs+? Does he know hero is often FOS?
Against an unknown, I fold to a donk bet on the turn. Hero has no draw. Calling gets hero committed.
Looking forward to results.
For whatever it's worth...
I hadn't been in the game very long when we played this hand, but I did drag in a couple pots prior to this. In both instances, I had a strong hand that I played somewhat passively, allowing my opponent to bet into me, and basically just bluff catching.
This game tends to be pretty wild, with many players getting involved with too many speculative hands, bluffing too much, and over-playing their thin value hands. There's a reg, who was in the game this evening, and who can single handedly turn the game into a wild west shooting match.
Even though I'd never seen him before, prior to making my return last week, it had been at least six months since I played in this game. So in game, I thought it was possible that V may have been used to the action, or may have thought I'd be likely to over-fold vs aggression. I don't think I look like an OMC, but I'm 54, so maybe I do look like that to a young guy.
My vague feel of a read was that he wasn't a crusher by any means. Subtle body language and facial expressions suggested he wasn't certain about what he was doing. I don't generally pay much attention to such things, beyond using them as supporting or conflicting data in close decision spots.
Think a cleancut dork in a home game has enough 98/87 that we're losing a lot, but also people will spazz out with Ax on a double paired board too. Especially when they don't think H has one of the two paired cards, might have another Ax hand and just don't realize an OP makes a better two pair than theirs. Anyone else see this?
Calling because you only need to be good like 20% of the time here, and you usually are. Not calling turn if I wasn't OK with calling river at this depth, and I'm probably calling turn. It's 60 straddles, we've an OP, I'm fine with whatever happens.
Too soon for the reveal?
Don't need the mods taking away my birthday.
Reveal:
Spoiler
Hero called. V said "ace high". I fast-rolled my hand, and he mucked, so I didn't see his kicker.
There were a couple other hands like that - guys donking into me or stabbing wildly if I checked, me just smooth-calling with my PP's. That game is wild.
Still not sure his line makes any sense. If he wanted to turn AX into a bluff, he could have donked river, and his line would have been more credible.
home game …white, maybe 30, clean cut, wearing khakis and dress shoes, like he came to the game straight from the office.
What was your read on V later in the game? Clean cut, khakis and dress shoes 30s at a home game is usually someone happy to lose his money. Or maybe doesn’t know how to play.
In low stakes 1/2 in high-rake card rooms, in rust-belt, not East and West coast Texas or Vegas, but middling cities without tourists, with mostly players 50+, regulars who want to stay and hate losing, few ever play Ax like this V.
What was your read on V later in the game? Clean cut, khakis and dress shoes 30s at a home game is usually someone happy to lose his money. Or maybe doesn’t know how to play. In low stakes 1/2 in high-rake card rooms, in rust-belt, not East and West coast Texas or Vegas, but middling cities without tourists, with mostly players 50+, regulars who want to stay and hate losing, fe
He went broke later.
Not an overly experienced player. Probably out of his depth in this game. It's 1/3 that plays like 5/10.
I tried but I've played my fair share of home-games and I'm not even sure we were playing poker in some of them lol.
Less surprising than I was expecting.
I was so close to being surprising...
This game is that sort of home game. The action guy I mentioned will open to $50-$60 when there's $3-$4 in the pot, cold call 3B's with ace-rag offsuit and stab at it multi-way with bottom pair.
I don't think you were around when I posted about an insane hand I played in this game last year. It was a back-raised 4B pot that went four ways to the flop with two players all in pre. I scooped over $2k in that one.
God bless the gambooly recs of the world.
insane hand I played in this game last year….back-raised 4B pot that went four ways to the flop with two players all in pre. I scooped over $2k in that one.
I do remember that hand. There were so many inexplicable lines that posters had no real strategy advice.
Takeaway: dm me if this home game ever has an open seat.
I do remember that hand. There were so many inexplicable lines that posters had no real strategy advice.
Takeaway: dm me if this home game ever has an open seat.
Found the thread.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showt...
One of the most ridiculous multi-way pots I've ever played, and tied for the biggest pot I've won at low stakes.
Don't think I'd joined the forum yet when I played the other one....
Semi-drunk UTG1 reg opens to $15 off $350. Two regs call off $500. Whale in CO 3B's to $45 off $700. BTN reg cold calls off $450. Hero in SB cold calls off $900 with JcTs. BB folds. UTG1 and the other two all call, so we're 6 ways to the flop in a 3B pot with $270 in the middle.
Flop was (chef's kiss) AcKsQc.
Hero loses his mind and donks $200. UTG1 jams for $305, and hero instantly regrets not donking for $150, since UTG1's jam isn't enough to re-open the action.
Fold, fold. CO flat calls, leaving $350 back. BTN jams $405, re-opening the action, and I could have kissed him on the lips. Hero re-jams for CO's remaining $350. CO snaps. Dealer is figuring out all the main pot / side pot BS, when cards start getting rolled over.
UTG1 has K8cc, middle pair + NFD.
CO has AKo, top 2P.
BTN has AJo, TP + GSSD.
Hero has 48.7% equity and has to dodge eight clubs, the case ace, the case king, three 10's (for a chop), runner-runner J's, and runner-runner 8's.
Turn and river are bricks, and we scoop $2300 in a 1/3 game.
We're also doing $10 double-board PLO bomb pots every orbit (there's a bomb pot button going around in opposite direction to the dealer button - the bomb pots are played when that button and dealer button land on the same person).
Kinda like Mars’ moons (the moons of Mars?):
Mars's two moons, Phobos and Deimos, appear to move in different directions across the sky due to their unique orbital speeds relative to the planet's rotation. Phobos orbits faster than Mars spins, rising in the west and setting in the east, while Deimos rises in the east and sets in the west, moving slower than the planet's rotation.
