GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
He was 6-14 in the second half
Kyrie was 2-6 for 5 points in the 4th quarter of game 7. Lebron was 3-8 for 11 points (4/5 FTs).
Often our memory is fallible and that's normal but continuing to push a narrative that is completely counter to reality when it's pointed out that your memory was wrong shows that you're letting your bias dictate your thinking not any actual critical thought.
If it wasn't for kyrie and jr that 2nd hald woulda been 30 point win for warriors. I honestly didn't even see lebron on the court til the block. If u told me he was in the locker room i would have believed you.
Kyrie was 2-6 for 5 points in the 4th quarter of game 7. Lebron was 3-8 for 11 points (4/5 FTs).
Often our memory is fallible and that's normal but continuing to push a narrative that is completely counter to reality when it's pointed out that your memory was wrong shows that you're letting your bias dictate your thinking not any actual critical thought.
I admit i have a bias against Lebron. When he lost to warriors and never needed a cast, but when they got beat he goes to the press conference with a cast, i knew this guy's a joke. He wouldn't admit they outplayed you.
That being said i'm being totally honest when i don't remember lebron in that game til the block. Kyrie and jr won that thing. If those stats are accurate he hit the key shots when it mattered where lebron was scared to take that shot. Kyrie was the alpha.
And yeah memories fade, but knowing who was in charge was obvious. Tell me any game where jordan wasn't in charge.
If it wasn't for kyrie and jr that 2nd hald woulda been 30 point win for warriors. I honestly didn't even see lebron on the court til the block. If u told me he was in the locker room i would have believed you.
He top scored for the Cavs that game, scored more than anyone on the court except Draymond
He also scored 11 of the Cavs 19 in the 4th Q.
Musta been free throws? do you remember lebron scoring in the 2nd half?
Also ignoring the most famous block in NBA history in a tie game. Just delusional levels of hatred to down play his performance in game 7.
So, why has Kyrie never won anything else in his career other than when he played with a guy who led the finals in all 5 major stats?
Kyrie played with Durant, Harden, Luka, Tatum, among other big stars.
^^^ Not in their prime, or healthy.
Kyrie, Love, Bosh and company must be in their prime to attract other prime stars, and they sacrificed most or all of their prime to Lebron..
Again, sacrificing their prime for Bron-ball is why they didn't attract other stars in their prime, or win without Lebron.
Secondly, why does EVERYONE have to win without Lebron, when we already have Wade???... He's enough for Lebron to fall short of the goat standard... Once Wade taught Lebron how to win, everything else after that plays itself.... But even without Wade, Kyrie made the Finals, which Pippen never did without Mike, and Kyrie also outplayed the league MVP, which no sidekick ever did - it's literally the most help ever provided.
Jordan did well enough on his own merits to be regarded as the GoAT. He doesn't need all these hypotheticald about if he didn't drink beer and smoke cigars and if he didn't retire 3 times. He doesn't need you to give him imaginary credit for the things he didn't do. That makes him seem like he isn't the GOAT.
No one is saying that jordan WOULD BE goat if he didn't drink or smoke - we're saying he was goat in spite of it, and would be basically god if he never drank/smoked.
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LOL just looked it up.
Even if you isolate to the second half of game 7 for some reason, Lebron had 15 points and 6 assists to Kyrie's 17 points and 0 assists. JR Smith had 8 points and 0 assists. The Observer (TM) responsible for more points than JR and Kyrie combined.
At least FG can cherry pick data and argue that makes a convincing argument to those who don't know anything.
Holy sh*t so Lebron was outscored in the 2nd half of game 7 by his sidekick AND the sidekick "closed" with top 3 all-time shot...
MJ had zero help by comparison - Pippen was always carried in the 2nd half or 4th quarter, and Kukoc actually led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring for the 97' and 98' Playoffs.. Again, MJ won with career 2nd options, while Lebron needed dominant 1st options and franchise players to play 2nd and 3rd option..
Ultimately, Lebron always had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on the championship level) like MJ did for 100% of series, Finals, and playoff runs.. No one is close to this level of carrying.
Btw, the top 3 shots ever: 1) the Allen miracle... 2) Kyrie's shot... 3) MJ game six
LeBron was always a better rebounder AND passer.
call me when lebron has six championships.
thats your only argument?
thats the only argument I need sean!!!!!
Jordan is the better offensive rebounder.
So Lebron is only "better" at the positionally-based defensive rebounding, but otherwise trails in offensive rebounding, BPG, SPG, and the most important category of PPG (by a mile)..
In addition to OREB, BPG, SPG, and PPG, Lebron also trails in efficiency per possession, jumpshooting efficiency, clutch efficiency, FT%, Player Efficiency Rating (PER), and three-point efficiency above bailout volume (3+ attempts).
And if Lebron is a better passer, how come he only started averaging more playoff assists than Jordan in 2015, when Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone?.. Otherwise, Jordan averaged more assists through 9 seasons of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14').. This is insane considering that Jordan plays off-ball and doesn't employ the assist-friendly style like Lebron's ball-dominance.. Essentially, previous eras got "pure assists" without the help of ball-dominance or excessive screen roll action.. They were more pure passers.
No one is saying that jordan WOULD BE goat if he didn't drink or smoke - we're saying he was goat in spite of it, and would be basically god if he never drank/smoked.
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Still on that fictional stuff. Would have blah blah and there's no way to quantify anything.
If anything the fact that a guy could dominate while not have a disciplined lifestyle is proof that the era was weak. So this argument hurts his case. Badly.
LeBron with another masterclass performance. 21/12/10 on 50% shooting, while being +25.
He's doing this at a game number that no one has ever played before.
Just icing on the cake for the GOAT.
If a player can't reach the highest-ever calibers of basketball, then they can't be goat... The highest calibers includes:
* goat teams (dynasties)
* goat individual dominance (DPOY/MVP, 10 straight scoring titles, etc)
* goat clutch (game-winners on the championship level, goat clutch efficiency)
* defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load throughout title runs)
^^^ In addition to these goat calibers, Lebron also failed standard calibers, such as winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player - he needed "super-teams" of 3 franchise players (big 3).
Since Lebron never reached the highest calibers of basketball, he can't be in the goat conversation.. He simply never reached the goat level of individual or team dominance..
Heck, many of Lebron's best seasons (25 ppg) would be Jordan's worst, by far.. Jordan never averaged 25 or had teammates match his ppg, while Lebron won titles that way.
Still on that fictional stuff. Would have blah blah and there's no way to quantify anything.
If anything the fact that a guy could dominate while not have a disciplined lifestyle is proof that the era was weak. So this argument hurts his case. Badly.
Again, you thought the argument was that he WOULD BE goat without the debauchery, but we were saying that he's goat in spite of it.
That's a pretty big difference, and I was happy to clear that up for you.
Ultimately, Lebron is only "better" at the positionally-based defensive rebounding, but otherwise trails in offensive rebounding, BPG, SPG, and the most important category of PPG (by a mile)..
In addition to OREB, BPG, SPG, and PPG, Lebron also trails in efficiency per possession, jumpshooting efficiency, clutch efficiency, FT%, Player Efficiency Rating (PER), and three-point efficiency above bailout volume (3+ attempts).
Accordingly, Lebron is literally BAD compared to jordan and his record on the championship level is the best indication of this vast inferiority... He has a lottery record against Finals teams over a large sample, which means that his manufactured East titles were exposed by the West.
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Problems with Lebron's goat case
* Never reached a goat level of team dominance (dynasties)
* Never reached a goat level of individual dominance (i.e. peak Giannis was arguably more dominant, let alone MJ, Wilt, Jokic, Kareem, Shaq and others)
* Never won with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player
* Never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load throughout title runs)
* Bad chemistry - barely won 50 games with preseason favorites, thereby falling to perennial underdog, aka favored talent falters = bad chemistry
* Reputation for flopping, choking, colluding, whining, stiff-arming, and meltdowns
Btw, the weak era argument fails because there's too many overlapping players that both Lebron and 90's Jordan faced (in addition to softer rules)...
We aren't comparing guys that faced none of the same players like MJ and Russell... We're comparing guys that both faced the Duncan/Popovich Spurs - Lebron was historically locked-up, swept, AND destroyed by record amount, while Hornacek/Stockton bullied Duncan in 5 games... Then Jordan destroyed Duncan's bully.. Carry on
Also ignoring the most famous block in NBA history in a tie game. Just delusional levels of hatred to down play his performance in game 7.
Ignoring? I was the one who pointed it out. It literally was the only thing of memeory he did in that game 7. But really it wasn't very impressive if we look at it closely. Iggy had no idea somone was coming up behind him so he was laying it in like a practice layup.
I don't hate Lebron, just his press confrences when he lost were sad. Total denials of his fault. This game i'm sure lebron had a wheelchair ready for the presser until Kyrie and jr saved him.
Though his past personality irked me, i treat him fairly. He was a total no show mia in that game 7 until the block. What happened against the celtics when he didn't show up? Oh yeah was blamed on his teammate banging his mom. Always an excuse. That's your goat.
Also ignoring the most famous block in NBA history in a tie game. Just delusional levels of hatred to down play his performance in game 7.
I will admit or say that Lebron carried the Cavs in 2016 if you can find me another sidekick that destroyed a league MVP in a series.
In other words, show me that it's normal to have a sidekick destroy the best player in the league.. It seems like destroying the best player is the most help possible, and unprecedented.
Lebron has always needed unprecedented help, because we know that AD is the first player ever to turn a lottery team into champion in 1 year - he did this by leading the scoring and transforming the defense from worst to first... He was literally prime Kareem.
The reality is that Lebron took superstar #1 pick franchise players from other teams and made them play 2nd and 3rd option for him... This gave him perennial preseason favorites, yet he still mostly lost .. His standard was to barely win 50 games with the preseason favorite, thereby falling to perennial underdog... Since the talent was favored, we know that the issue was bad chemistry (Bron-ball)
I will admit or say that Lebron carried the Cavs in 2016 if you can find me another sidekick that destroyed a league MVP in a series.In other words, show me that it's normal to have a sidekick destroy the best player in the league.. It seems like destroying the best player is the most help possible, and unprecedented.Lebron has always needed unprecedented help, because we know
Look how he neutered Kevin Love. Dude was a alpha dog beast then had to cow-tow to lebron so lebron didn't feel threatened. Became Lebron's butler. Yes mr president, whatever you need from me mr president. Look, Lebron is a historically great player. Definately not the goat. And it's fair to say as klay did "he's sensitive." He shrank many times when the lights got too bright. Very talented player for a big guy, but you can't be the goat when you get nervous in big games. That's when goats shine.
Kyrie was 2-6 for 5 points in the 4th quarter of game 7. Lebron was 3-8 for 11 points (4/5 FTs).
Often our memory is fallible and that's normal but continuing to push a narrative that is completely counter to reality when it's pointed out that your memory was wrong shows that you're letting your bias dictate your thinking not any actual critical thought.
How did the last 4:52 look regarding efficiency
Recent Thread Cliffs
Lebron went 0-4 in the last 4:52 of Gane 7 in the 16' Finals, while letting a teammate iso for the game-winner.
This is one example of why Lebron is labeled a "choker"..
There are countless other examples as well because Lebron's clutch efficiency and efficiency outside of 5 feet is BAD, while also being 0-7 on game-winners or tyers in the Finals.
Look how he neutered Kevin Love. Dude was a alpha dog beast then had to cow-tow to lebron so lebron didn't feel threatened. Became Lebron's butler. Yes mr president, whatever you need from me mr president. Look, Lebron is a historically great player. Definately not the goat. And it's fair to say as klay did "he's sensitive." He shrank many times when the lights got too bright.
Love was considered a monster and it's absurd that another franchise player could team up with him, let alone Lebron.. Then there's Kyrie as well, so that's like Jokic teaming up with Senguin (Love) and Brunson (Kyrie)...
Again, it's completely unfair and unprecedented for 3 top franchise players from 3 different teams to join forces in their prime - and Lebron did it twice.
This unprecedented help gave him a record number of preseason favorites, but he barely won 50 games and fell to perennial underdog.. Since the talent was favored, we know that the fall to underdog was due to bad chemistry (Bron-ball)..
Love was considered a monster and it's absurd that another franchise player could team up with him, let alone Lebron.. Then there's Kyrie as well, so that's like Jokic teaming up with Senguin (Love) and Brunson (Kyrie)... Again, it's completely unfair and unprecedented for 3 top franchise players from 3 different teams to join forces in their prime - and Lebron did it twice. T
Don't forget the original dream team Lebron formed with Wade and Bosh. Bosh was the number 1 free agent that everyone wanted. Imagine if Jordan was allowed to hand pick his teams. Jordan, bird, shaq woulda been good team.
