KKÂ’s mw on wet board.
1/3 8 handed.
Effective stack 300. Two of the villains just sat down including UTG+1
I should have a nitty image to the button who’s been at the table a while. I’m finding that even with a nitty image I still get plenty of action.
I open to 15 UTG with KsKd, UTG+1, Button, and BB call.
60 in pot
7c6c5h..BB checks, I check, UTG+1 bets 25, button and BB cal.I didn’t know what to do in the moment. I thought about CR but felt like this board was so wet I may bloat a pot I might have to fold. I suppose if I check/jam I don’t have to worry about that. I also thought about calling and donk/folding a turn on a non club J,Q,T,2,3,5.
What would you all do?
23 Replies
You have to bet the flop.
Once you missed that bet, the hand is a total nightmare. I recommend you don't even think about what to do after that point and ask the mods to close this thread.
There's no point in trying to debate a check/raise or turn donk, or whatever it was you were scheming. Analyzing this hand beyond the missed c-bet will likely just end up giving you ideas that will make you worse at poker.
I will give you one hint.
If anyone comes in this thread telling you to "call and evaluate".......that's not someone you should listen to
As per my method of attempting to setup a good SPR preflop (either a very large one or very small one, both of which are trivially easy to play when compared to a middling SPR), I limp in.
Preflop has now setup a very uncomfortable postflop spot. We've created an SPR of ~5 where anyone can make us play for stacks whenever they want, and yet we offered 3 players awesome IO of 23+:1, and are OOP with most likley a face upish hand to boot. The more you have a complete handle on this spot, the more comfortable you'll be constantly getting yourself into it. I hate this spot, so I avoid it completely.
Pretty craptastic flop. Lottsa sets / two pears plus high equity hands like pair + draw / draw. I also just check and evaluate. Facing this action, it's a difficult spot because it is possible we're ahead, but it's also possible we're drawing dead. And meanwhile even calling is bloating the pot to where we'll be facing a commitment decision if we face a big turn bet. It's a gross spot with no great option, which is again why I do everything in my power to avoid this preflop. Anyhoo, I call and see what happens. ETA: I think our donk/fold line on a blank turn is a decent plan.
FWIW, I'm always outvoted on my preflop method, so there's always more than one method to do well at poker. But if you're struggling with your current method you may want to consider alternatives.
Ggoodluck!G
In EP my range is small enough (AQo+/ATs+/KQs/77+) where ~almost all parts of it could be considered for 3bets against the proper opener / enough dead money / etc.
GcluelessNLnoobG
Checking the flop is a big mistake - yeh the board sucks for your "range" but it's live 1/3 just bet it. There's value to be had and you need protection - x/c the flop will just lead you to folding future streets.
id call. checking flop is standard and not even a decision. if the action goes bet - raise, its an easy fold. there are a huge number of straight, two pair, and set combos you are crushed against. if you bet you are protecting their hand not yours.
people who think its a "big mistake" need to stop getting married to overpairs esp mutliway.
Cbetting is bad here. If you want to go with it, you could checkraise and hope you are ahead, but x/c is probably better. What does betting accomplish? You probably have to fold to a raise, but a draw could raise.
i must be playing horrible poker.
how is limping KK UTG winning poker?
how is checking a 765 board "standard" with kings
Please help me understand these theories
Check/call is standard here vs three opponents. This board just stinks for KK vs the random range of three callers. I doubt we are going to like a lot of turns, but we can evaluate based on card, reaction, betting, etc.
Those of you c-betting, how much and what do you do vs. a raise?
Check/call is standard here vs three opponents. This board just stinks for KK vs the random range of three callers. I doubt we are going to like a lot of turns, but we can evaluate based on card, reaction, betting, etc.
Those of you c-betting, how much and what do you do vs. a raise
Prob just b/f 4 way here. My issue with check/call here is nearly half the deck is a bad turn card, we allow our opponents to realize equity, its more likely to go multiway to the turn, it'll be much harder to get value. Betting we have a better chance to get HU, we dictate value bets, we deny equity, we charge for turn/river cards that benefit the caller.
I hate having to bet/fold here with the BTN in the hand since he thinks we are a NIT. He will raise us all day long if it folds to him -- or he should.
I c Bet 40.
the UTG+1 doesn't scare me that Villain just sat down and cold called 15 from an UTG raiser his range is **** and he is gambling
If I thought UTG+1 was gambling, I'd raise now since the other two just flatted so they shouldn't be too strong 😉 However, if we decide to gii, we are either toast or need to fade a lot of cards.
if he had a real hand he would 3bet no?
his range is garbage he just flatted too why the distinction?
if he had a real hand he would 3bet no?
his range is garbage he just flatted too why the distinction?
We still have two unknowns between us. I'm just not gii here vs. their ranges. Are you going to check/raise/fold?
Also, if you c-bet $40 and get two (or three) callers, are you just going to commit on a blank turn (not that there are many blank turns. I guess 3, T, J, Q non-club would be good)?
7-6-5 with two clubs and three callers... yeah i'm just staring at my chips and hoping the turn is a blank lol
Grunch:
PRE - raise bigger.
FLOP - ehhh...with two opponents behind us, I'd expect this board to get stabbed a lot, so checking warrants consideration. But if we think our opponents are loose passive, there's a lot of merit in just betting our hand for value. If we meet resistance, we can re-evaluate based on the action.
One of the challenges with checking is that our hand doesn't benefit from check-raising in a multi-way pot on a board which favors the callers' ranges. A x/r would mostly just fold out all their worst hands and only get called by their better hands and best draws.
Not sure about the bet sizing we should take. My flop bets tend to be less than 1/3 pot or full pot/over-bet. A small bet here gives them a good price to continue wide, and the big bet pressures them to only continue with their best hands and draws.
If we bet big, we should over-fold to raises, and be cautious about how we play turns and rivers, depending on who calls and their position. I'd feel much better if the two players behind fold and only the BB calls.
If we bet small, we may need to continue vs a raise, but we'll mostly be guessing on later streets. If we bet/call flop, and the turn checks through, we might have the best hand and can go for thin value on clean rivers.
Generally I think our hand is probably only good for one or two streets of value, so I'd want to bet flop to clean up some equity, and then decide what to do on future streets when we get there.
So, bet small, or bet big. Check if you think it's very likely one of the two players behind is going to stab at it. But if that happens, take notice of their sizing, and be careful about continuing if they bet huge, especially if someone else calls.
I c Bet 40.
the UTG+1 doesn't scare me that Villain just sat down and cold called 15 from an UTG raiser his range is **** and he is gambling
Don't like that bet size. It's too in-between, and doesn't do anything to define our opponents' ranges.
Either bet very small, or very large. When you c-bet 2/3 pot, you're going to be lost a lot on later streets.
I suppose it may depend a bit on who you're playing with.
If you're playing with a lotta level 0 thinkers who have never played casino poker before, then a bet/fold line may be ok.
But the fact is that hardly anyone at the table will be that type of opponent. Yes, they'll mostly all be long term losers. But this ain't their first rodeo either. So this situation becomes a little more problematic.
If we're cbetting into the world from EP with a nitty image, our hand will typically only be seen as big overpears (or perhaps at worse very high equity hands who are cool getting it in like AKcc). So basically we mostly have exactly what it looks like we have. This makes us extremely easy to play against for anyone with even the slightest clue. Most will be able to get away from low equity hands like a small one pear with no draws. And meanwhile some will be able to put us in a horrendous situation with their high equity hands (of which there are a lot on this board). Checking disguises our hand, may induce worse to think they are ahead and put in money, plus sometimes lets us get away for cheap if all hell breaks out behind us.
But, yeah, there are also drawbacks. If it checks around, we'll now realize there is a very good chance we do have the best hand and gave everyone a free card. But at the time of our action, we really have no idea if we're the ones attempting to protect our equity or whether we're the ones hoping for a free card. Admittedly, the turn isn't going to get much easier and we hate a lotta cards, but we're also not thrilled about shoveling in a lotta money / working towards playing for stacks on the flop.
In a nutshell, the more multiway it goes and the more chance the board has smashed someone, the much stronger a hand we need to want to purposely be putting in money.
IMO, all our options completely suck (which is why I avoid this spot by doing something different preflop). But I think checking is probably the least suckiest of our options.
the UTG+1 doesn't scare me that Villain just sat down and cold called 15 from an UTG raiser his range is **** and he is gambling
Yes, he can have ~ATC preflop. But postflop he's decided his hand is good enough to bet into the world, and he can have a crapload of hands that have a crapload of equity (including ones that have us drawing dead). Plus someone else can be sandbagging / waiting for a clean turn before springing their trap. It's just not a great spot to be shoveling money into the pot when we offered everyone such good IO preflop to stack us postflop.
GcluelessNLnoobG
Yeh I think betting here really only works against low level players - better players will own you and frankly check/calling they will own you as well. I do think if you bet you want to bet large - we're looking to extract 1 or 2 streets of value at best, we want to make sure this gets HU, and if we can fold hands with reasonable equity that's a good result.
