2/5 3 handed, nit donks
2/5 3 handed, table just started
Villain is a young mix asian nit. He has wide preflop range, tight postflop range.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/170/l...
Eff 500
Hero in btn opens to 15 w/7♥8♥
V in sb calls
BB calls (young white guy w/1k stack)
3way pot 45
Flop 9♥J♥A♠
V donks 35
BB calls
Hero???? call ? fold? raise?
15 Replies
This might be the worst straight flush draw possible. At least you’re live for the BBJ on the Th.
I would call and proceed with caution. Probably gonna have to fold the turn.
Spoiler
In game I raise to 150 thinking it's ok if V jams on top, and we might have maybe a little fold equity???
Only V calls
Turn blank xx
Riv 7, V bets 200, we fold.
Maybe flop raise was a punt. We have very low fold equity. But V has value heavy hands imho. We are only a slight dog?
It can’t be that bad to raise with a SFD on a board that heavily favors you. I would be worried about AXhh that you are dead against though. And wtf is the nit donking huge with into two guys? Is it really one pair?
flop raise is bad if you're not gonna follow through on the turn and jam
always assume flop FE is zero unless you raise huge.
Recently read Mike Caro article changing my thinking on this. Betting flush draws in Hold’em is usually unprofitable. When you bet, you are just charging yourself to connect. The semi-bluff needs everyone checking to you and it’s best to have a overcard to the flop as another out.
I used to blast off with these draws, but as nitty said, you need FE and probably don’t have it here. It’s a monster draw, but you’re not a favorite against any ace & only 60-40 against a random hand.
Again the ‘stop & go’
How can you check-raise the flop & check the turn? It looks like a classic stab, give up? Are you sure you’re not being exploited by over-folding. You check, I bet is a common concept.
Grunch:
Reads - he's not a nit if he has a wide pre-flop range.
Why are we playing 2/5 with 100 BB's?
PRE - I don't know what sort of range we should be opening here, starting with 100 BB's in a three handed, raked game. I wonder if 87s is supposed to be a fold.
Also, what size would you open with a premium hand here? Same size? Just wondering if you're splitting your sizes. My gut says we should open bigger when we have a hand that doesn't mind taking it down pre.
FLOP - meh, I understand wanting to peel one when we're getting this price, but we probably shouldn't flat call. Unless we drill the Th, I don't think we're ever going to love the situation, when our opponents could be drawing to higher flushes or straights.
As an alternative to calling or folding, we could raise. We can rep all the 2P and set combos here, whereas our opponents are more capped, especially BB. Our hand obviously has no showdown value, and we're not drawing to the nuts, so it may play better as a raise than a call.
Otherwise, I think we should fold.
Spoiler
In game I raise to 150 thinking it's ok if V jams on top, and we might have maybe a little fold equity???
Only V calls
Turn blank xx
Riv 7, V bets 200, we fold.
Maybe flop raise was a punt. We have very low fold equity. But V has value heavy hands imho. We are only a slight dog?
I would assume we're probably not taking the pot down when we raise the flop, and we'll have to barrel turn. Because of this, I'd size down with the raise. I might only make it $105-$115.
Pretend we have AA with the Ah, or JJ. We wouldn't raise huge. We'd raise around 3x, to get V to continue with his entire range.
Raise to $105-$115, the pot will be $300 going to the turn, and we can jam for around 1.25x-1.3x pot.
If you're not willing to take this sort of line as a semi-bluff, then either fold flop, or flat call, then start a semi-bluff on the turn if he checks. If he barrels big, it's a pretty easy fold.
Also - if we're going to play this way, we should have more money on the table.
he's not a nit if he has a wide pre-flop range.
He plays too many speculative hands that I don't play preflop but he plays deeper. He's looser than a nit preflop but postflop he's your fit/fold nit.
I dunno how to label him besides a nit, a passive fish????
Grunch:Why are we playing 2/5 with 100 BB's?PRE - I don't know what sort of range we should be opening here, starting with 100 BB's in a three handed, raked game. I wonder if 87s is supposed to be a fold. Also, what size would you open with a premium hand here? Same size? Just wondering if you're splitting your sizes. My gut says we should open bigger when we have a hand that d
100bb is my comfort zone.
You fold 87s in btn???????? Marc Goone himself says he opens ATC on btn.
15 is my normal size on btn in shorthanded game.
If 9 handed 20 would be my normal size unless blinds are aggro.
He plays too many speculative hands that I don't play preflop but he plays deeper. He's looser than a nit preflop but postflop he's your fit/fold nit. I dunno how to label him besides a nit, a passive fish????100bb is my comfort zone.You fold 87s in btn???????? Marc Goone himself says he opens ATC on btn.15 is my normal size on btn in shorthanded game.If 9 handed 20 would be
Just label him as wide pre and tight post.
100 BB's effective is fine if you're playing online, or you specialize in short stack play. I don't think you're a short stack specialist, when I also see you playing $1200 deep in this same game.
Marc Goone isn't playing 3 handed, 100BB's deep. So he's not raising any two here.
I'd suggest varying your sizing a little, or just sizing up. It's fine to just take down the blinds with 8 high in a raked game, especially when we're only playing 100BB's deep.
87s is a completely standard open here. I would probably open down to 85s OTB. 3-handed won’t change the ranges at all either, you are just playing standard BTN/SB/BB ranges.
I play 100bb live a lot. It really isn’t that short at 2/5 when opening to 3x. At 1/2 or 1/3 where 5x opens get 4 or 5 callers, 100bb feels like much more of a shortstack.
87s is a completely standard open here. I would probably open down to 85s OTB. 3-handed won’t change the ranges at all either, you are just playing standard BTN/SB/BB ranges.
I play 100bb live a lot. It really isn’t that short at 2/5 when opening to 3x. At 1/2 or 1/3 where 5x opens get 4 or 5 callers, 100bb feels like much more of a shortstack.
Admittedly, it's been a while since I played a lot of short-handed games. My thinking was that in a 3-handed 2-blind game, the BTN is basically UTG, and we need to be mindful about the hands we open and how we play them.
Like, in this case, starting out 100BB's deep, can we ever call a 4x 3B? We're just barely deep enough to set-mine with our low-middling PP's. We're not really deep enough to continue with any SC's or worse, but in a 3-handed game, it's hard to fold a decent SC.
We're kind of in no-man's land with a lot of the hands that want to continue. If we 4B, are we jamming, or raising to a size that doesn't pot commit us? Do we have any light 4B's, because we're 3-handed? What does that range look like?
For example, in this hand, when we raise, are the blinds going to defend super-wide, with a lot of hands that are worse than 87s? Or is their flatting range going to be high-card heavy?
I'm not saying we should necessarily fold 87s. I'm just saying it's a hand that seems to have high RIO in a short-handed game. And since it is a raked game, and we are somewhat short-stacked, there's merit to raising bigger to take it down pre-flop / pre-rake, and we can just fold to a 3B.
At best, we may have a sliver of their continue range dominated, and be flipping with some lower PP's. The rest of their continue range probably has 87s crushed. Short of flopping 2P, trips, the nut straight, or a boat, what boards are we super-happy c-betting?
Obviously we don't really love flopping an 8-high flush draw and a gut-shot to the bottom end of a straight with 3 over-cards on board. With the benefit of hindsight, we may wish we'd raised bigger pre, or just folded.
Admittedly, it's been a while since I played a lot of short-handed games. My thinking was that in a 3-handed 2-blind game, the BTN is basically UTG, and we need to be mindful about the hands we open and how we play them.Like, in this case, starting out 100BB's deep, can we ever call a 4x 3B? We're just barely deep enough to set-mine with our low-middling PP's. We're not really
Not sure why you think you would need to open tighter on the button in a 3-handed game. Like I said, it should be a standard button opening range.
Most (all?) casinos will reduce rake when playing short-handed. At my local casino, 3-handed play is rake-free and 4-handed play is $1 max rake.
You can flat a $60 3bet off a $500 stack. It sets up an SPR of 3.67 which is reasonable. 78s is probably a fold facing a 3bet at this depth though.
4betting gets a little awkward but there is still some room to 4bet not all-in. Having more opportunities to 4bet jam pre (maximizing fold equity and ensuring equity realization) is one of the benefits of playing a shorter stack too.
Not sure why you think you would need to open tighter on the button in a 3-handed game. Like I said, it should be a standard button opening range.Most (all?) casinos will reduce rake when playing short-handed. At my local casino, 3-handed play is rake-free and 4-handed play is $1 max rake. You can flat a $60 3bet off a $500 stack. It sets up an SPR of 3.67 which is reasonable.
That's a good point about reduced rake. It's half rake in my room. I didn't think about it.
It's not that I think we should open tighter per se. I just wonder how this set up affects the ranges we should play. We'll act last post, but our raise has to get through two players with uncapped ranges, and in a short handed game, I think they're supposed to defend pretty wide. I would expect a lot more 3B'ing here, and our hand seems like it hates getting 3B.
I dunno. There's probably some charts for this. I don't play enough short handed in cash games to bother studying this spot. If I'm playing 3-handed, it's in a tournament, and we're probably only 20-ish BB's deep with a 1BB ante, where opens are just 2BB's. The decisions tend to get simpler, with a lot more push-fold action pre.
