Examine Brute Force - What do you see?
This was a good result, but I’m not sure I had great reasons for my actions.
Would anyone do this?
1/3 - 8-handed, 400 eff
The 3-bettor at 1/3 often has JJ-AA and is not folding, so questionable to try to bluff the 3-bettor.
.
I guess I wish I played in games like you, because 3bets in my games are much, much wider, except for a couple of nits. 4bets yea, JJ-AA - but 3bets = small pairs, Ax suited, any paint, connectors and more.
I wasn’t initially out to bluff
I 3bet and when he called I was done
But when he checked the turn
I went for it
You take your own chances and pay your own dues.
I don’t mind being attacked on paper, but I will not join in the snarkyness. I’m past all that. Just trying to be nice to everyone and learn from discussion.
It’s hard to attack a happy man
I like criticism, but why does it turn into personal attacks on here?
It’s so funny to me, because if I was looking down on you face to face, some of you would be much more careful in what you say to me.
Peace be with you…
What did I say that was nasty? Mainly just said the bluff doesn't make sense because he isn't folding a better hand. TT was probably good.
My problem is that I joined the world's premier poker forum to engage in productive discussions that expand my proficiency in the game.
What I found what a colony of whales dispensing some of the worst poker advice I've ever seen. If you try to suggest some line other than their preferred spewy bullshit, the screech that you're a troll, and call the mods for help. Not because I was impolite or abrasive (I wasn't back then), but because their brains can't handle the fact that they've been playing poker wrong their whole life. The spazzes that came at me when I first arrived are absolutely inexcusable.
I challenged them to tell me WHY they disagreed. Instead they just cried, whined, bitched, and moaned. So things have escalated, and this is where we are.
If anyone wants to tell me WHY they think my analysis is wrong...I'll hear it, and we can be civil.
Until then, I'm just going to keep pointing out their absolutely disgusting poker strategies. This crap cannot go unchallenged. It's a disservice to the poker community if some novice player were to come here for advice and run into @greatwhitefish selling snake oil, @gobbledegook teaching his 2% VPIP strat, @javanewt telling people how to out-station a calling station, or my favorite @docvail posting his DRUNKEN rants of cut/pasted poker jargon. The poker world deserves better than this school of thin-skinned orcas.
When the criticism of my posts is poker-related and not about my attitude, maybe we can have a different kind of discussion. If the answer is always "You're mean" instead of "You're wrong", then I'm just going to assume I'm doing something right.
I wasn’t initially out to bluff
I 3bet and when he called I was done
But when he checked the turn
I went for it
So what you're saying here is that you spent no time or effort contemplating your opponent's range, stack commitments, odds, outs, or equities.
You're playing poker on gut-feel and impulse.
That's never going to work. Why did you start this thread? To show that it did work once? Yeah, that's how poker works. Sometimes the bad plays win. Happens pretty often actually. You can't take one instance of that happening, and then retroactively confirm your "gut feeling" to use "brute force".
Winning long term is going to require you to have some kind of inner monologue. Not this "uhhh, I have nice card, I do money now" approach you're advocating here. That caveman **** isn't going to be profitable.
After 20+ years of poker he is playing 2nl again. After finding some moderate success he felt the need to create an account on 2p2 with the sole purpose of bragging about his 2nl success. When he realized 2p2 didn't think his success was worthy of any praise but the opposite, mockery, because lets be real, who brags about winning at 2nl? He decided to start trolling poker threads and offering some of the worst advice seen so far.
You're basically just dealing with an angry little man who after 20+ years of poker is back to playing stakes that make a smaller hourly than searching the streets for quarters.
After 20+ years of poker he is playing 2nl again. After finding some moderate success he felt the need to create an account on 2p2 with the sole purpose of bragging about his 2nl success. When he realized 2p2 didn't think his success was worthy of any praise but the opposite, mockery, because lets be real, who brags about winning at 2nl? He decided to start trolling poker threa
See what I mean?
It would be one thing if they criticized me for true things that actually happened.
When they have to make up lies and exaggerated nonsense.....it's a tell.
My problem is that I joined the world's premier poker forum to engage in productive discussions that expand my proficiency in the game.What I found what a colony of whales dispensing some of the worst poker advice I've ever seen. If you try to suggest some line other than their preferred spewy bullshit, the screech that you're a troll, and call the mods for help. Not because I
GG - you may not like his strategy, but it is clearly a legit one (even if llikely tading off some EV for lower variance) that has proven succssful over a very long sample size
Javanewt and Docavail consistently give good advive.
I'm curious at this point, what you actually hope to achieve with your posts:? Do you think by posting enough, people will see the light? Do you just want a reaction? Are you hoping to bully them into not posting? And whatever your objective, have you made any progress on it?
My suggestion, and honestly, take this as genuine, is you consider getting therapy. I'm not a mental health expert, but my gut tells me something is not quite right.
GG - you may not like his strategy, but it is clearly a legit one (even if llikely tading off some EV for lower variance) that has proven succssful over a very long sample size
Fair enough. I've seen the graph. Though the slope of the line is trending lower over time. "Sit around and wait for the nuts" is not a very nuanced strategy. We've all chosen to open up our game beyond that for one reason or another. Thanks GG, but we're moving on. Why the hell make 40,000 posts about situations he'd virtually never be in.
And now you've torched your credibility beyond repair. You know that's not true. Javanewt is the grand matriarch of calling stations. She is a classic loose-passive bad reg. She is surely a losing player with those losses mitigated by the fact that her opponents probably play just as bad as she does. And Docvail has some kind of poker-Tourette's that compels him to blurt out the most absurd nonsense you've ever heard. I've shredded both of their posts to pieces recently. There are plenty of examples. Go check, and then tell me where I'm going wrong. If it's poker related, I'll hear it. If it's more crap about my attitude, then I'll assume you've conceded.
Why are you curious? How is that possible when the post you just quoted clearly explains this in articulate detail.
I was FLOORED when I came here and found the cacophony of horrendous poker advice being strewn about this forum. I was literally shocked that people with high post counts, credibility, and reputations could be so astoundingly bad at the game. I already know enough about Texas Hold 'em to spot their grift and call it out. However, a novice or even intermediate player who comes here to learn will be POISONED. Perhaps irreparably. And I think that's a god damn tragedy.
I tried civil debates and got nothing but toxicity in return. They started this, not me.
All I can do now is continue to call out their garbage. My posts are a warning to the next generation of poker players about the dangers of getting advice from people who lose money in this game. They might have me on "ignore", but the casual non-posting forum reader doesn't. The new players looking for good advice don't have me blocked. If I'm loud and staggering, then my posts will stand out among the consensus of spewtards that pollute these forums.
Do you think by posting enough, people will see the light? Do you just want a reaction? Are you hoping to bully them into not posting?
None of those are my motivation. But I won't be sad if any of that happens.
Find me five coherent docvail posts from the past week and I'll consider it.
GG - you may not like his strategy, but it is clearly a legit one (even if llikely tading off some EV for lower variance) that has proven succssful over a very long sample sizeJavanewt and Docavail consistently give good advive.I'm curious at this point, what you actually hope to achieve with your posts:? Do you think by posting enough, people will see the light? Do you just wa
That's an understatement. Something is very not right if after 20 years of poker you decide to create an account to brag about 2nl results on the softest site I've been on in the last 15 years.
His posts achieve nothing. A boring troll who's also trash at poker on a dead poker forum.
That's an understatement. Something is very not right if after 20 years of poker you decide to create an account to brag about 2nl results on the softest site I've been on in the last 15 years.
His posts achieve nothing. A boring troll who's also trash at poker on a dead poker forum.
Yeah I'm done. I should know better; won't feed him anymore. I find the mods good on this site so kinda stunned they have let this go on though.
When we call his 3! PF we have a pot of 80 with only 360 back; an SPR of only 4.5. I think calling with TT is fine even though we can massively overfold to a 3! because most V's 3! range is SO strong. Many/most 1/3 players in my game don't 3! with AQ or even AK
When he bets pot OTF I think that AK/AQ are way less likely than they were PF.
Folding OTF seems to me to be the best option by far.
If we call the pot is 240 with 280 behind. What would we do facing a bet on any turn that isn't a T? AP your min raise OTF seems bad; perhaps worse than calling. What are we trying to accomplish? Folding out the sliver of AQ and AK he has after his PF 3! and PSB OTF? Getting value from exactly QT that he 3! for some reason?
AP OTT the turn I would assume that he an OP almost all the time and would just shut it down and check back.
When we call his 3! PF we have a pot of 80 with only 360 back; an SPR of only 4.5. I think calling with TT is fine even though we can massively overfold to a 3! because most V's 3! range is SO strong. Many/most 1/3 players in my game don't 3! with AQ or even AKWhen he bets pot OTF I think that AK/AQ are way less likely than they were PF.Folding OTF seems to me to be the best op
The main reason I posted this was not that I played it well, but I wanted to figure out what villain folded. His range should be strong we all agree. So strong that most people say my tens were toast.
Unfortunately, I mostly just got blasted for making such a dumb play and I’m still left wondering what villain folded. The play worked despite the fact I shouldn’t have done it according to the consensus.
I just wonder why it worked?
———-
Side note:
GG would be proud
I did some limping yesterday at a weird table for awhile. Nobody was opening - when you can limp with no fear of a raise, it makes sense to get in the mix.
It was such a strange game. Nobody opened but me, but everyone would call. I raised JJ pre-flop and had to fold to 557 flop where two players had a 5 and kicker won.
Every game is different…
My suggestion, and honestly, take this as genuine, is you consider getting therapy. I'm not a mental health expert, but my gut tells me something is not quite right.
The issue is that he doesn’t want to discuss his thoughts on poker at all, but is instead interested in tearing apart other people’s thoughts and opinions.
He screaming I’m right and you’re not, instead of respectfully posting his opinion. He prowling around waiting for someone to post something so he can immediately tear it apart.
The mental part is that he seems to enjoy being an arrogant azz - he thrives on being rude. This is truly ‘strange behavior’
I hate conflict, but I don’t avoid it. I will express what I think whether people like it or not. I will fight for what I think is right. However, I’m not out to attack other people’s opinions.
I come from an old world before cell phones, so social media is confusing. Seems to be this thing that if you keep telling the story over & over again that you’re smarter than everyone else - it becomes true.
But this is still ‘real life’ and it doesn’t work that way.
I hope you didn't take offense at anything I posted. At least I was trying to be constructive with my posts. I have found that sometimes if I try to be nice and say something like, "I understand what you were thinking when you made that play, " it can be taken as if I am endorsing that play, and then people don't learn from their mistakes.
I feel like sometimes if a play is giving up significant EV it is better just to say, "that play is bad for X and Y reasons." It might sting, but being blunt is sometimes necessary for us to improve as poker players. We've all made poor plays before and if I criticize a play I hope it's clear that I don't intend for it to be a value judgement about the poster.
Hell that's true even if I criticize someone's overall tendencies. I don't intend for it to be a value judgement about their overall poker skills. Like I've called out Doc before for being overly nitty in low SPR spots when he is faced with putting in all his chips. I think that's a valid criticism, but it doesn't take away from all the strengths he has as a poker player, such as his hand-reading skills, which is usually what he's leaning on to make those big folds. Likewise I've learned a lot from GG's unconventional style, which he clearly makes work for him, but sometimes I'll question a specific decision he made.
I also have enough self-awareness to recognize that I might sometimes make mistakes in the opposite direction from Doc or GG, such as by being too sticky in spots where people are never bluffing. Sometimes it's good for all of us to check each others' biases/tendencies.
Anyway if I had to guess, in the current hand your opponent's most likely holding was probaby something like AK or AQ, possibly with a BDFD. That's given the result that he called your flop min raise then folded to your turn jam.
However before he folded and after he potted the flop, I would've thought overpairs and strong Jx were also likely holdings. There just aren't that many hands that make sense that would call the flop minraise, then fold to the turn jam. Besides AK or AQ, maybe QTs is possible, or best case scenario you got him to fold a jack.
Anyway take care everyone.
I know OP was proud of his "bluff" working. However, several people pointed out that it was probably a fold on the flop and you were probably way ahead when villain folded. A couple of people seemed critical, but the play was pretty bad. I tried to point it out politely.
Again, I welcome criticism
But still await anyone telling me what villain likely had and why this line worked? when it shouldn’t have
I’ve said too much trying to figure out one guy
I read most of your opinions and if I was commenting on the hand, I’d say the same things. Unfortunately, no one could get past that issue to answer my questions.
Another one..
How good a hand would you fold if you were villain in that scenario?
Many on this forum seem to ignore
How does line look to villain?
The repartee is mostly good on here
I’m not offended. I don’t expect to be impressed often.
Everyone told you. He probably had AK/AQ. Maybe KQ/KTs/QTs with a gutshot and overcard(s). He was trying to blow you away with the psb on the flop and thought he had enough equity to call the raise.
He could somehow have had QQ+ and be really scared or think you never bluff. It does look strong when you raise the psb from the 3-bettor. However, when the board pairs, you basically could only have JJ/99/J9 to play it that way on the flop and turn and have him beat, and only one combination of 99.
Again, I welcome criticism
But still await anyone telling me what villain likely had and why this line worked? when it shouldn’t have.
Because you were an unknown taking a super polarized line. That's why it worked.
Villain had to conclude that either.
1. you're a total fish who spazzes with the nuts
2. You're a maniac, possibly on tilt, possibly drunk, just trying to "brute force" a win.
He decided it wasn't worth paying to find out with his decent-ish strength hand. Whichever tendency you're demonstrating will surely reveal itself within an orbit or two. If you're playing the nuts face up, he can lol-fold. If you're a total spewtard, he can nutcamp and stack you. Either way the adjustment will be easy for him.
The reason you're not getting the answers you want is because your question is irrelevant. "Why did this work when it shouldn't have?" is a supremely results-oriented question. You shouldn't be thinking like that.
The thing is when he 3!s and pots the flop and you minraise, your play doesn't make a lot of sense. If you had AA beat, you would probably call and let him fire the turn. When he pots it, he either has a big pair or has missed and is continuing the represent a big pair. So either way, you want to flat call with a set and let him keep firing.
You need a 1/3 player to be good enough to fold a big pair after 3-betting with lowish SPR and bad enough to believe you had him beat with your line.
It just doesn't seem likely you got him to lay down an overpair. More likely he had overcards and maybe a straight draw and was trying to get you to fold.
If you were going to bluff, you should probably do it with something that was way behind but maybe had more than 2 outs to improve.
Why does it seem to me that both dueces are the same person. People playing games on here?
Why does it seem to me that both dueces are the same person. People playing games on here?
No, other deuce is a fish. Everyone knows it. Some people think he is a troll. I mostly don't agree with him. Agree with some of his last post ITT.
Maybe he based his name on mine. In 2-7 triple draw, a deuce is a key card. 2257T is stronger than 257TK because of the blocker. Sometimes you can bluff with deuce blockers, as they limit how strong hands someone else can have.
You really think you got him to fold QQ-AA? When he potted the flop like that, it could easily be he had some sort of overcards and/or draw and was trying to get you to fold. When he called the minraise, it indicates he didn't have total air.
