AA opens utg and it goes 5 ways to the flop...

I think all options should be on the table here. If V2 looking at us is a genuine tell, I would think about folding now. I interpret that as him trying to get us to stay involved in the hand.

It’s also OK to call here and see the next card, possibly leading on non-spades.

Maybe call and reevaluate. Psb and call is strong, but hard to fold when you are only losing to a set.

[QUOTE=
Are we raising, and how much?
Are we willing to get stacks in, or do we try to keep the pot manageable?
I think we never flat given the flush draw and the action so far...?[/QUOTE]

No, should have bet flop
No, with a vulnerable one-pair hand that never wins when all the money goes in - keep it small
Have to flat now, you gave up the initiative, you’re dodging bullets.

When I pot the flop, it’s a polarized range that leans slightly toward bluffs.

Your villain plays too many hands, I wonder if he pots the flop if you had bet. Why didn’t you bet the flop? You opened, it’s a natural play.

You sent mixed signals
I’m good enough to open, but not good enough to bet this flop.

I see experienced players do something like this and they lose to the players that simply bet their hand when they hit.

As played, the concern is the pro that called ahead of you. The first bet represents AJ, so pro’s call says I beat top pair or maybe a big draw. He looked at you and decided he wasn’t gonna get squeezed, so maybe he played that draw.

No way I’m putting in more money, just call. You can’t protect your hand now as there’s a good chance you’re behind. A raise will simply not fold better hands.

Probably have to commit on the turn
If the board pairs, I’m staying in
If not, it depends on the action

If you call, you may be able to get a better read from the turn action. I wouldn't worry about protecting against the flush draw. If the flush hits, with this action from 2 players, and not having the bdfd and nut flush blocker, you can usually fold, and that is fine.

The PSB and call are a little worrying. Can go either way with the stare, but it's often a tell that they're strong and trying to look worried.

More importantly, if you raise and stack off with AA on this flop you're always going to be drawing to two outs, unless there's a huge whale in the pot. Almost nobody is stacking off with AJ this deep and nobody has KK/QQ due to preflop action.

Wow, we've got a real heated debate going on in this thread! Hot topic!

Let's take a poll of the answers given so far. Do you think hero should....

A. Interpret some innocuous eye movement as the nuts and fold.
B. Let two villains freeroll their equity
C. Jam for 300% pot

How is this real? How??

Extra plankton for the whale who can answer our question of the day....

What do we do when we have the best hand?

Board: Js3s2c
Equity Win Tie
MP3 52.52% 52.38% 0.14% { AdAc }
CO 25.96% 25.39% 0.57% { JJ, 33-22, AJs, KJs, QJs, J8s+, KsQs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, 4s3s, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo }
SB 21.53% 21.01% 0.51% { KJs, QJs, J8s+, 54s, KsQs, AsTs, KsTs, QsTs, As9s, Ks9s, Qs9s, Ts9s, As8s, Ks8s, Qs8s, Ts8s, 9s8s, As7s, 9s7s, 8s7s, As6s, 9s6s, 8s6s, 7s6s, As5s, 7s5s, 6s5s, As4s, 4s3s, KJo, QJo, JTo }

Yeah, a x/r from the preflop utg raiser to a psb and call will look too strong and may fold out worse made hands. So no choice but to flat call and reevaluate on turn.

Preflop is standard.

Flop: c-betting into the world isn't great but neither is giving free card. We have more NFD and more JJ, so I don't mind small standard c-bet.

AP Flop: I'm more concerned about V2, the pro. He has called preflop in a pretty obvious 3b/fold spot with the straddle on and oop. Then he smooth calls a PSB, seemingly unafraid of H who can xr or the thinking reg behind him.

This is a really tough spot. V2 almost has to have a hand that can call a raise with correct odds - so something like As5s or some other combo draw (6s5s, 5s4s etc). There aren't too many comfortable turn cards here.

Pot is 360. I probably bet 400 here and leave 800 behind. You give the draws the wrong price to chase. You leave enough behind to jam brick turns. Any set will likely jam and you can decide.

More background on this hand, and my mental state...For those who like to read novels.

I had been playing at this table for almost 4.5 hrs, since it first opened at 10am.

The V1 Indian guy was a familiar face, but I hadn't played much with him before. Based on vague memories, I first profiled him as a fish. He was encouraging straddles (which led to this game eventually being converted to a mandatory straddle game), bomb pots, and asking about the deep stack 5/5/10/20 game. He was playing aggressively, and got the better of me on one hand by check raising me on the turn. I updated my mental profile of him to that of a dangerous player as he built up his stack. However as the session went on, he lost that entire stack and had to rebuy. I could see that he was now playing way too many hands, never folding his preflop opens when 3-bet from behind, regularly overstabbing when checked to, and calling too wide post-flop. Updated profiling...fish.

I'd been running cold. I had only one pot in the first 3 hrs at the table. I definitely had a tight image. This hand happened: A young asian opens utg1 to 35 (one orbit ago this same player in utg1 3-bet an utg open with QJo). The V1 Indian guy in LJ makes it $105. A fish cold calls on the B. I have KQs in the BB. I figured the young asian's opening range was really wide, and I knew V1 had seen the previous QJo 3-bet, and was likely 3-betting wide. I tank a bit and the fish and V1 give off weak vibes. I have a very tight image. I ship all-in for $800. The young asian folds. V1 folds. The fish on the B holds a little funeral for his pocket 3's and mucks. A player to my right says, "You shoved into 2 uncapped ranges so you have to be really strong." I think to myself, yeah I guess I did, though I had a feeling they were both weak. But as I replayed the hand, I was like, ok that was an overplay...I got away with it, but a 4-bet shove with KQs should happen almost never.

As for the hand of this thread...Why did I open to only $25? The max buy-in for this game is $800, so I am used to playing 80 straddles deep, and in that case my standard open is $25 in utg and utg1, and $30-35 in CO and B. I might have had a brain glitch, since I was actually 120 straddles deep, but I do remember thinking at the time that I would be happy if someone targetted perceived weakness in a smallish open and 3-bet me.

Post flop...If it's 5-handed and I'm 2nd to last to act, I would usually bet this hand. So why did I check? I certainly had profiled V1 in the CO as an overstabber. It's also possible that I am misremembering this hand, and that one of the preflop callers was behind me (rather than the straddle player to my right). 5-way with 2 people behind, I would usually check AA on this flop.

The pro calling the psb from the SB should have given me pause. I perceived him in that moment as not strong (ie. not currently ahead of me). But he is a tricky player. He's ****ed me up before flatting a small set on the flop multiway. He never has 2 pair. I "put him on" a jack or a flush draw. He could have a straight draw with a backdoor flush draw (I am not sure that that the 2 on the flop was a club, so I may not have been blocking the back door nut flush draw). Should have given it more thought. Just because I should always slow down and be thinking about these sorts of things before I start focusing what my bet size is going to be.

Yeah, reg should be overcalling 22/33 in the SB, expecting the BB or straddle may call and he might be able to call a raise multiway. Not sure what else he is calling with but small pps. He could have suited cards and made a flush draw. Interested board, because no likely 2 pairs and not many straight draws.

I know you are not always getting 5 callers, but it might be better to open a little more than 2.5xBB with your range, even though it is a midstakes game.

I think TPMK is clear fold and AA is clear call; don't ask me exactly where the line is in between.

Raising is an overplay with limited benefits from protection.

I'm not going to fold on clean runouts against described aggressor but I'm not trying to get stacks in either.

Grunch: Flat and evaluate turn. Not ready to play for stacks just yet. FWIW, I bet the flop. Also, $25 seems awfully small, especially from UTG? I would expect to get three or four callers -- or is that not normal?

Anyone saying "call and evaluate" is really just saying "I have no frickin clue what to do here and lack the capacity to think logically about the possibilities"

What are you even going to evaluate anyway??

We act before the aggressor on the turn. Has anyone considered that? You all know that players act in turn clockwise, right?

Are we checking to him? Giving up another free card to two guys on a draws???

If you're donking on the turn, why? How's that better than just raising now?

Raise flop to set up a turn shove on non-spades.

I get we want to get value from FDs and Jx, but I think a x/r is overplaying our hand. I don't think Jx is ever calling and we're going to run into sets sometimes. We're mostly getting called by hands that beat us or have a lot of equity. Being the monkey in the middle is simply a gross spot that makes it very hard to realize our equity. We raise, V1 calls, and V2 is getting a good price for materially all his draws and can jam sets. V2 gets to play pretty perfect. I don't think we deny equity all that often, and more frequently we're getting in behind.

For those reasons, I'd call and really be hoping the turn checks through, in which case we can value bet or bluffcatch some rivers expecting Jx to pay us off reasonably frequently. If both Vs are putting a lot of money on OTT, I think it's prudent to get away.

Interesting that you raise smaller from OOP and bigger with position. If I mix it up, I tend to do the opposite.

Never raising here. As stated, you fold out worse, get snapped/shoved on by better, and facing a shove by V2 would suck. Also, I realize V1 is stabbing and has position, but that's a pretty big stab. Is that size normal with four players behind him?

No, I don't think you get that at all. See, getting value requires us to bet, which is the opposite of what you're suggesting.

I can't believe I had to explain that.

It's certainly not ideal, but we played the hand to this point as we did, and we're here. The lesson to take away from this is to raise bigger pre and bet the flop. But that didn't happen, and so we have to play the hand we're dealt so to speak.

I completely disagree, but so what if Jx folds? Winning the pot right now is a $335 profit. Winning money is the object of the game you know.

Yes, and?

This is another case of you saying something that's true in a very narrow sense, and then using it as the basis for a bad line. There are like 80 combos in V's range, sets are like 6 of them. Sometimes you lose. 74-6 is a great frickin' record.

Mostly? How? Show your math on that. We lose to 33 and 22. What range are you giving Villain where 6 hands represent the majority of his holdings?

How much equity is "a lot". A flush draw has 9 outs. We're a 2 to 1 favorite with two cards to come. If that's a scary spot for you sitting 100 straddles deep, then it's time to switch to checkers bud.

Wanna know what really botches our equity?? Giving free cards to drawing hands.

You think the guy who just bet pot is gonna slow down when you check to him again??

Or we could avoid that altogether by raising the flop.

And just so everyone is clear, this is 5/5/10 in dollars, not cents.

Honestly if you're not raising here, then just fold.

It's not like you're going to have some lightning strike epiphany on the turn. It's not like these two villains are gonna say "aww shyeeet, that guy check/called. I guess he's got me. I'll give up now"

You're not going to suddenly have clarity when the board gets scarier and the bets get bigger.

Folding overpairs, in single raise pots, 100 bets deep because "ZOMG big bet" has got to be the fishiest line I've ever heard.

If you're not getting stacks in on dry runouts then fold your hand now and ask yourself why you even came to the casino at all.

Did someone actually say to fold the flop? I don't remember reading that, but I'm not going back through.

So, I take it you are raising with the intention to call a shove from either player? Or are you going to raise/fold?

Post #2

He said he'd think about it -- not do it. I interpret that to be based on how well OP knows V2 and what that look means.

So, you gii?

Honestly, I apologize for getting a bit testy in previous threads with you. This is A-tier trolling. Genuinely made me laugh.

This is backwards, not sure why we'd be opening smaller with a narrower range and bigger with a wider range.