GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

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Thread Cliffs

Bam's 83 points proves that today's league is FAKE and essentially WWE.

Players lack competitiveness and will commit fouls to get to 83 points... Or the commissioner suspends the most impactful player to allow a comeback in the Finals.

This type of fakery would never happen in previous eras because real competition MATTERED back then... it MATTERED to determine a real winner and loser without protecting anyone's feelings or legacy.

Adam Silver created a set of rules that doesn't allow defense and mandates high scoring - the rules don't allow defenders to make physical contact or impede the offensive player.. This isn't basketball and that's why all the players say that EUROLEAGUE is a more serious and better league where scoring is actually a challenge, aka real basketball

Lebron produces much weaker teams than Kobe, which makes him inferior

Lebron produces weak teams regardless of who we put around him, while Kobe produced dynasties and perennial favorites with less help than Lebron had.

Kobe won with a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options (Pau < Love, Bosh, Jamison).

Infact, Lebron needed a Kobe-like player to teach him how to win and coddle him like a baby - these are Wade's words - a poor man's Kobe was leader and mentor to Lebron.. let that sink in ... Wade was superior to Lebron, let alone Kobe

So you're wrong on every level..

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Here's why Kobe > Lebron

From a coaching standpoint, Lebron's skillset restricts coaches to a ball-dominant offense with low team assists, while Kobe can run a high ball movement offense like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls (dynasty-ball).. Kobe gives coaches the freedom to run more sophisticated 5-man offenses, and the superior brand wins more with less.. It won with a 2nd option (Pau) that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options (Bosh, Love or Jamison).

From a GM standpoint, Lebron can't carry the "star" category of scoring, so he needs more star help, thereby preventing GM's from getting the right "others" or defenders, aka elite roster construction..

The reason why Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams is because excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams... Accordingly, he never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention), and also never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. So Lebron is is clearly inferior to Kobe.

To summarize - Kobe is vastly superior because he allows coaches to run the best offenses and superior chemistry (they aren't restricted to a ball-dominant offense), while allowing GM's elite roster construction (they don't have to get a bunch of stars because Kobe can carry the "star" category of scoring).

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Here's why Kobe > Lebron

From a coaching standpoint, Lebron's skillset restricts coaches to a ball-dominant offense with low team assists, while Kobe can run a high ball movement offense like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls (dynasty-ball).. Kobe gives coaches the freedom to run more sophisticated 5-man offenses, and the superior brand wins more with less.. It won with a 2nd option (Pau) that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options (Bosh, Love or Jamison).

From a GM standpoint, Lebron can't carry the "star" category of scoring, so he needs more star help, thereby preventing GM's from getting the right "others" or defenders, aka elite roster construction..

The reason why Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams is because excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams... Accordingly, he never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention), and also never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. Again, Lebron's inability to carry the "star" category of scoring prevents elite roster construction compared to Kobe.

To summarize - Kobe is vastly superior because he allows coaches to run the best offenses and superior chemistry (they aren't restricted to a ball-dominant offense), while allowing GM's elite roster construction (they don't have to get a bunch of stars because Kobe can carry the "star" category of scoring).

You have no concept of defense bc it's basically impossible to single-stat quantity.

The idea that Mo is superior to Klay and Jamison is superior to Pau is so over-the-top silly to anyone that vaguely understands there's two sides of the court.

You'd be much better off trying to argue baseball fwiw.

Klay lacks the playmaking help that Lebron needs to win, so that's why Lebron couldn't win with Klay but can win with Mo.

Again, it's statistical fact that Lebron carried Mo to 66 wins, and then Curry carried a lower producer across the board to 73 wins.

This is statistical fact, so the Warriors were a 1-man team just like the 09' Cavs.

Btw, Jamison was a 2-time all-star in 2008 and 2x all-star, while Pau was a 1x all-star with zero MVP consideration...

But even if you don't agree with Jamison, Love and Bosh > Pau, so the argument still stands, aka KOBE WON WITH MUCH LESS... full stop. Lebron is inferior

I would take Kobe over LeFraud in a heartbeat if I was starting a team. Sometimes it's not about the #'s. I'm OK with not having an intellectual conversation about it.

Jordan=GOAT AINEC

What happened to something something journalism majors?!?

Bam > Kobe.

Discuss.

Fans vote for all-star, and the point is that Jamison and Pau were considered similar caliber players, but then Pau joined Kobe and started making All-NBA thereafter..

Similar to other 2nd options like Worthy, Pippen, Dumars, Klay, Parker or Manu, Pau needed titles get All-NBA - he needed winning spotlight to be seen as good (All-NBA).. Again, this is the case for all 2nd options - they don't make All-NBA without winning spotlight and virtually NEVER make it with losing teams.

Otoh, 1st options like Love, Bosh, Lebron or MJ make All-NBA without winning spotlight because their dominance requires it... It's a pretty big distinction compared to 2nd options like Pippen, Klay or Pau, who need winning spotlight to be seen as being among the best.

It's a fake league because it isn't an actual competition... Players aren't competing.. They will stop the game with fouls so a role player can break the record to denigrate a past legend.

Furthermore, there's a LEAGUE-MANDATED ban on defense that includes hands-off and "no impeding", plus a "keep the paint empty" rule (3s).

This gimmicky BS and bastardization of the game has led to a Scottie Pippen-level scorer dropping 83 in 1 game.. This dunking and transition specialist was so "unstoppable" that he got fouled for 43 fouls shots... Think about that.. It's pure BS and WWE fake wrestling sh*t.... It's a BS league with a bunch of actors, gamers and podcasters.. Of course it's also 3ball and not basketball.. All of this is why I haven't watched in decades

OR it's because the West's power forwards were at their literal GOAT heights (KG, Duncan, Dirk, Webber, etc).

Meanwhile, Jamison got his nods in the weak as hell East and zero while he was in the West.

Pau was also drafted in '01 and Jamison '98, so talking about what they'd done by '08 is a bit silly too. And even then, Pau was ROY (and obv 1st team All-Rookie) while Jamison was 2nd team All-Rookie. Jamison was also on his third team after being traded twice already. Meanwhile, the NBA as a whole reacted similarly to the Luka trade when Memphis moved Pau.

So no, I don't think they were considered similar caliber players in '08.

Nuance and facts get in the way of 1-man team vs 1-man team narratives and odd angled dunk videos. It sucks and ruins the fun, I know.

Regardless of your disagreement on Jamison, the point remains that Kobe won with less because Pau was considered worse than Love and Bosh..

So again, Kobe won with less by winning with a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options.

Kobe could win with less because his goat scoring diversity allowed superior brand of ball and great fits/chemistry.

Btw, Wade's recent interview showed that the entire point of Lebron going to Miami was for Wade to mentor him - literally - this is straight out of Wade's mouth... So Lebron needed a poor man's Kobe to be his mentor, in addition to having a 3rd option that tops Kobe's 2nd option

LeBron went to Miami bc no one wants to live in Cleveland comparatively.

Shocking that Wade would craft a narrative that elevates him instead of acknowledging the arbitrary luck of him being drafted by an org residing in Miami. Similar to Kobe in LA and to a lesser degree MJ in Chicago.

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Hughes was a coveted free agent that just had 2 good seasons alongside Arenas and was entering his prime...

But Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles destroyed Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook, Reaves, Love, Bosh, Jamison and many more

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05' HUGHES........... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 4.3 BPM... 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN............. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.... No All-D
93' PIPPEN............. 19.2 PER... 0.132 WS/48... 4.0 BPM... 4.7 VORP... 19/8/6

06' ZYDRUNAS'...... 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN............. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

^^^ Lebron got 3 years to develop a veteran and favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06', while Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with a lottery cast.

Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team... So the Cavs already had a duo of all-stars, while also adding a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make the 06' Playoffs (see stats above)..

Hughes was a coveted free agent that was supposed to be Lebron's "pippen" (see previous post), and Lebron already had the East all-star center - this is more help than Jordan's first 3-peat teams.

In 2009, Mo arrived on a BAD TEAM but added 21 wins by providing spacing for LeDrive and providing better offensive help than peak Klay.. Then Jamison was ANOTHER coveted free agent (chosen over Amare), while Ben Wallace or Shaq were like fossil Rodman in Chicago.

So you're just lying by saying that no one went to Cleveland - the talent was there, but Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles couldn't develop viable chemistry.. Subsequent losses as historic favorites caused Lebron to cut and run - the upset losses embarrassed him into leaving.

Don't even try to lump Chicago in there with LA or Miami... Chicago was a laughing stock just like Cleveland, and Jordan didn't have any personnel additions for the first 3-peat - no one went there because the exact lottery cast from 88' was three-peating in 93'...

Since the Bulls didn't have any personnel additions from other teams, they won by improving their actual BASKETBALL and chemistry.. Their lack of reliance on talent is how we know they played the best basketball in history.

Otoh, Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles can't develop great chemistry, so he gave up on learning chemistry and opted for talent-based winning instead (all-star team strategy).. This is why he's a fraud .. He simply never learned great basketball... And despite hand-picking the most talent ever (7 preseason favorites), he mostly lost at every stop because bad chemistry mostly loses, regardless of cast.

Wade has held his tongue FOR DECADES about Lebron costing him a 2nd FMVP.

And it's common knowledge that no one in history ever shot 35% with 6 TO's per game in a series, except Lebron in the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF... So Lebron played worse than anyone ever has in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, while getting historically upset in the 09' and 10' Playoffs.. He was simply a TRAINWRECK prior to Wade, and it's common knowledge that Wade was supposed to teach him how to win..

So Wade was just reiterating what is widely reported already and common knowledge.

Wade and Bosh didn't want to live in Cleveland over Miami.

This is an actual reported fact. Had nothing to do with LeBron needing to be mentored.

Same story as KD and Kyrie wanting to live in NY when they were free agents.

Chicago is a desirable city to live in for rich NBA players.

You're combative and aggressively wrong about obvious things.

Bam is closer to Kobe than Hughes is to Pippen fwiw.

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Young Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen but his skillset of imposing spot-up roles couldn't develop them:

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

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The 2009 Cavs had FAR more offensive and defensive help than the 1990 Bulls:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Mo Williams Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM..... #3 team defense

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Scottie Pippen Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... #19 team defense

In 2010, the Cavs added a 20k scorer (Jamison), which gave them a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option, while also having better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, aka better help on both sides of the ball.

Unfortunately, Lebron still couldn't win the conference as a historic favorite (twice), so he put the top 3 scorers in the conference on 1 team to ensure Finals runs thereafter..

You said that no one wanted to go to Cleveland but that's false because Hughes, Mo, and Jamison were coveted free agents that out-produced Pippen and were reported as being Lebron's "pippen" upon being acquired.. Furthermore, guys like Ben Wallace and Shaq ring-chased similar to fossil Rodman.

So your premise that "no one wanted to come to Cleveland" is false.. By Lebron's 7th season (2010), he enjoyed better scorers than Pippen at 3rd option (Jamison), while also having better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, aka better help on both sides of the ball.. This is all statistical fact (see previous post).

You're wrong about whether Chicago is desirable, but there's no point in arguing it because NO ONE WENT THERE - Chicago was a laughing stock when Jordan arrived and they didn't add any talent from other teams for the first three-peat...

So your point is moot - Jordan didn't enjoy talent acquisitions from other teams like Lebron did at every stop of his career..

Btw, Jordan's biggest talent acquisition was FORCED to go to Chicago because no one wanted Rodman, who was a 35 and worse than 09' Ben Wallace or 10' Shaq.

You were wrong by saying that no one wanted to go to Cleveland, since they received many coveted free agents and had more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls... Unfortunately, Lebron still couldn't win the conference as a historic favorite (twice), so he put the top 3 scorers in the conference on 1 team to ensure Finals runs thereafter..

Not surprisingly, this house of cards was always exposed as a paper tiger in the Finals by virtue of 4 record losses or sweeps against the West (the "real" conference that wasn't fake/colluded like the East)..

LeBron was a two time MVP (4 other top 6 finishes), 6 time all NBA, 2 time all defense (including a runner up in DPOTY) before he left Cleveland.

He was 25 years old.

He would have been first ballot hall of famer if he never played another game.

Do you realise how insane you sound when you say he was a "trainwreck"? You can't be taken seriously when you say stuff like that.

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Thread Cliffs

Lebron left Cleveland after 2010 because he was a perennial trainwreck, such as 4 straight years of getting historically locked up (07', 08') or historically upset (09', 10').

Accordingly, the plan was for a proven winner and clutch player like Wade to mentor Lebron.. Essentially, a poor man's Kobe was mentor and 1st option over Lebron in the 11' Playoffs - this included Wade being the lead dog when Lebron finally beat his bully (the Celtics), and also the Finals.

Ultimately, the "decision" confirmed that Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles and bad chemistry needs more supporting TALENT, such as 1st options and franchise players from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option.

In contrast to Lebron's bad chemistry and need for 1st options, the superior chemistry of Curry, Duncan and Kobe wins with career 2nd options and lower producers... These lower producers force Curry, Duncan and Kobe to carry the scoring load, aka defeat max defensive attention, while Lebron's 1st options are equal-scoring partners that attract equal defensive attention.. They match or lead Lebron in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20', 25'), while Curry, Kobe and Duncan are forced to CARRY the scoring load, aka defeat max defensive attention..

Ultimately, by winning with less, and also more often, and with a tougher path like defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load), Curry, Duncan and Kobe are objectively better than Lebron.