The Frustration of 4-Betting AAxx OOP
Live 1-2
Villain is a somewhat tight but aggressive reg. He's also kind of a fish. He's been min-clicking me a lot this week when we're deep and he's in position.
I 4-bet him with premium AAxx three times. Twice I had to check-fold really bad flops. Once I stacked him after the flop.
This will be the fourth time I 4-bet him.
EP [Hero] raises to 15 with As Ad Jd 4s (1.5k stack)
MP fish calls 15 (1k)
HJ fish calls 15 (1k)
CO fish calls 15 (1k)
BTN [Villain] raises to 25 (1.5k)
SB folds
BB folds
Hero raises to 125
MP folds
HJ folds
CO folds
BTN calls 125
Pot 298
Flop Th 9c 2h
Hero?
Also, what hands should we 4-bet him with besides premium AAxx? Double-suited broadway, double-suited rundowns, double-suited Axxx rundowns, and double-suited and connected two pair?
I ran it through a solver. It says we're supposed to bet half pot, then fold to a raise. Does this sound right?
I ran it through a solver. It says we're supposed to bet half pot, then fold to a raise. Does this sound right?
Generally when this happens it’s with hands that are strong but NOT strong enough to check call, and also block some of the board.
In this case there are a ton of draws, you have a straight blocker with the J and you unblock heart draws that you can get value from while denying equity from hands that whiff or aren’t strong enough to continue vs a bet.
Take a look at the hands IP is suppose to FOLD to this bet, that’s the important part.
Identify if these hands are folding in your games and if so, then you can implement.
I’d imagine tho the EV of checking and betting this hand is close enough tho that both are winning and you can decide based on opponents how to proceed. I’d focus more on the hands that have huge EV differences between the two options and ensure you are playing those properly and understanding the heuristics in play
Generally when this happens it's with hands that are strong but NOT strong enough to check call, and also block some of the board. In this case there are a ton of draws, you have a straight blocker with the J and you unblock heart draws that you can get value from while denying equity from hands that whiff or aren't strong enough to continue vs a bet. Take a look at the hands I
I didn't think he'd fold a lot of hands if I bet. So I just check-folded. Didn't know what else to do.
I ran it through a solver. It says we're supposed to bet half pot, then fold to a raise. Does this sound right?
I doubt he's going 25 here on BTN with a solver approved range. And if I'm gonna bet fold I'm much more likely to go 1/3 pot
Given the description of villain and your history I would either stop 4b these hands vs him if you're just gonna c/f flop or I would just embrace the variance and prob just pot flop and get it in vs whatever he's doing this with
His range is obv pretty wide and I'm not going to put myself in a position where I let a guy just keep trucking over me with min 3b so I'm gonna decide to either flat everything and play deceptive(if he's super aggro postflop and betting a lot) or I'm just gonna 4b my strongest range and make him play for stacks even if we end up in lots of marginal spots
Whichever one fits your play style/comfort level you'll have to decide but stop playing aggro pf then weak tight after the flop and make a decision how you want to combat this and stick with the plan
I doubt he's going 25 here on BTN with a solver approved range. And if I'm gonna bet fold I'm much more likely to go 1/3 potGiven the description of villain and your history I would either stop 4b these hands vs him if you're just gonna c/f flop or I would just embrace the variance and prob just pot flop and get it in vs whatever he's doing this withHis range is obv pretty wid
Pot and get it in at this depth on this board without anything else to go with my Aces? That's probably a spew.
Pot and get it in at this depth on this board without anything else to go with my Aces? That's probably a spew.
So is 4b pf then c/f flop vs him repeatedly when he knows you have exactly AA. If you're going to keep inflating the pot pf you need to be winning what's in the middle sometimes. Also you're probably doing pretty well vs whatever his range is on the flop and doing ok vs his overall get in range here
Or like I said you can just stop 4b and playing weak postflop vs a guy who keeps putting you in this spot
So is 4b pf then c/f flop vs him repeatedly when he knows you have exactly AA. If you're going to keep inflating the pot pf you need to be winning what's in the middle sometimes. Also you're probably doing pretty well vs whatever his range is on the flop and doing ok vs his overall get in range hereOr like I said you can just stop 4b and playing weak postflop vs a guy who kee
If you read carefully, I said I check-folded on two very bad boards (three to a straight, two-tone, and deep). And I got the money in and won on a good board.
This one was more tricky between the stack depth and the board texture. That's why I posted. And that's why you're the only one advocating for pot and get it in.
If you read carefully, I said I check-folded on two very bad boards (three to a straight, two-tone, and deep). And I got the money in and won on a good board.
This one was more tricky between the stack depth and the board texture. That's why I posted. And that's why you're the only one advocating for pot and get it in.
Ok, and now on a middling board you also check fold which should tell you everything you need to know about how you're playing these spots
I'm not telling you to pot/stack off here vs the field. You have a very specific player that is repeatedly min 3b you and you're playing weak vs him when you think you're punishing him by 4b your strong hands. He's winning this battle vs you atm
Also you and I are the only ones in here talking other than Echemondo who's giving you a non answer, answer
If you don't like my answer don't implement any of it, just keep 4b people with AA and c/f boards that suck for you which in your mind is every board you don't flop top set on. You have another board where you flop like 733 in I want to say a 3b pot and you check your AA. You're playing all boards you don't flop top set incredbily weak is the trend I see from your posts. You can take that as advice and plug the leak or take it as criticism and call me an *******, up to you how to proceed
Stop folding pls
Ok, and now on a middling board you also check fold which should tell you everything you need to know about how you're playing these spotsI'm not telling you to pot/stack off here vs the field. You have a very specific player that is repeatedly min 3b you and you're playing weak vs him when you think you're punishing him by 4b your strong hands. He's winning this battle vs you
Top set? With an SPR of 4.6, I just want to hit a dangler pair, a gutshot, a backdoor flush draw. I have absolutely nothing to go with my AAxx this hand.
I’ve only been studying and playing PLO for a few years. I don’t have every OOP AAxx situation memorized for every board texture and every stack depth. I’m not smart enough to differentiate check v. “B33” on 733 v. 773 flops and 100bb v. 200bb stacks unless someone points it out.
Can I ask for a little advice on here without the aggressive comments to go with it? Or is it the norm for internet forums to deliver (good!) advice but berate OP and tell them how much they suck?
Can I ask for a little advice on here without the aggressive comments to go with it? Or is it the norm for internet forums to deliver (good!) advice but berate OP and tell them how much they suck?
You fear being aggressive, this is your biggest problem
The deeper you are the more important position matters - here's an example where a good opponent can torture us postflop. Maybe calling the raise pre is better - you're DSed so going multiway isn't that bad of a situation. I don't know what he's min clicking but I sort of dig it - he's building a pot in position and takes the initiative postflop. On the flip side you should be raising very wide in position - you can't play the same style 100 bb deep vs 500+ bb deep.
The way you play I'd just let him get away with it and flat every 3bet he makes. No reason to put yourself into exploitable spots. Aces aint **** in PLO anyway and at least this way he wont have any clue what you're holding.
Either that or start min clicking him back with 100% of your range and see how he reacts lol.
Yeah I'm only 3/4-betting my premium AAxx when super deep and OOP now. It's just too hard to play them when you brick and have to guess what too do at 4 SPR.
I guess it's what some people are doing with AK or AQ in NL now. I've seen really good pros just flat in the BB with AK and AQ when they're heads-up and super deep against good players opening from EP.
What other hands are you 3/4-betting? That is the real question honestly.
I’d suggest everyone here who has access to a database solver like Mastermind or RIO or Genius use it to exclusively study AA in 3b and 4b pots both IP and OOP against both tight and loose ranges.
Majority of your 3b range in PLO is aces and it’s crucial you understand how to play them.
There’s a lot of nuance and a ton of our EV in 3b pots come from AA. Learn the spots.
It’s arguably the second most important skill in PLO after learning how to play preflop.
If you 4b wider you will have more coverage on flops like this. If you sometimes check sets and aces nfd you will have some check calls and check raises that will prevent him from auto barreling.
I'd suggest everyone here who has access to a database solver like Mastermind or RIO or Genius use it to exclusively study AA in 3b and 4b pots both IP and OOP against both tight and loose ranges.Majority of your 3b range in PLO is aces and it's crucial you understand how to play them. There's a lot of nuance and a ton of our EV in 3b pots come from AA. Learn the spots. It's ar
Yes, thank you for theis Echemondo. Best comment so far!
I'd suggest everyone here who has access to a database solver like Mastermind or RIO or Genius use it to exclusively study AA in 3b and 4b pots both IP and OOP against both tight and loose ranges.Majority of your 3b range in PLO is aces and it's crucial you understand how to play them. There's a lot of nuance and a ton of our EV in 3b pots come from AA. Learn the spots. It's ar
I want to train random hands for a month. Do any of those solvers—Mastermind, RIO, Genius—have a trainer where you can play randomized hands and randomized situations (i.e. it deals you a random hand in a random position, and you play it all the way from pre-flop to potentially the river)? Or do you have to specify the hand class (e.g. single-suited rundowns) or situation (e.g. BB vs. CO open, A-hi flop, 100bb) you want to drill over and over and over until you give it another setup?
I trained 50k hands on Omaha Poker Training a few years ago. But the solver sucks.
FlopHero just released a post-flop trainer today. But right now its post-flop trainer totally sucks (its solver is still very good—I imported 50k hands from Ignition last year and studied them).
Mastermind is what I use and it just came out with an amazing training update that should do everything you are asking.
You can filter your hands to only AA on different board textures and just train all the AA hands you have in range on specific boards.
Mastermind is what I use and it just came out with an amazing training update that should do everything you are asking.
You can filter your hands to only AA on different board textures and just train all the AA hands you have in range on specific boards.
Does the Mastermind trainer train for multi-way pots post-flop? Or just heads-up?
