QQ’s in a huge pot.

Shove and thank the poker gods for placing you in this game.

check/shove
or
shove

Grunch:

PRE - raise bigger. Make it at least $90, if not $100. I might even make it $120.

The UTG opener has a limping range, which means he's opening a stronger range. He just got three callers. He's probably not folding to a 3B, even a big one. We should be making it painful for the callers to over-call.

FLOP - I hate how we got here. Usually I'd check from OOP when we're so multi-way, but I'm not expecting our opponents to always start semi-bluffing with their draws. So I probably c-bet small, like $35.

If we get raised, I think we have to evaluate based on the size and our reads, but our opponents can have all the sets, a lot of 2P, and some slivers of straight combos.

This situation is why we need to raise bigger pre. We're at just a hair over 1 SPR in a four way pot. Our opponents are likely to jam with a lot of hands, both better and worse. We're just guessing about whether or not to call.

How many worse hands will call an over-bet jam by the PFR?

Let's assume they're 3B'ing TT+/AK pre. Are we expecting one or more opponents to call our jam with 77-99? I'd think those middling PP's fold.

Can we find a 1P hand that calls, but doesn't have a ton of equity?

Don't be daft, the SPR is about 1, not even that if everyone indeed has 400 or less. We're obviously not folding queens and you should stop trying to look for excuses to get away in spots like these.

Not sure what's the best approach now though, but QQ no club can do with some protection here, so might as well just shove. Always a chance someone will put you on AK and call with 77-TT. We're going broke against a set here, there's no getting away from that.

CR all in.

if it gets checked around, evaluate the turn card.

Jam now - you’re a 70% favorite and can’t let someone catch up.

All these players called 70 pre at 1/3
It makes me wonder what your image is like
I play in some wild games & 4 calls like this doesn’t happen much. Anyone that says raise more pre is lost - just looking at results.

Put the pressure on
The guy that folds would have hit and the guy that calls likely misses. Mistakes happen, the wrong guy calls and you stack him.

Checking is just asking to be out-drawn and faced with tough decisions. Those villains want a FreeCard, so don’t give it to them. If you check and the 4c turns, you can’t play for stacks anymore.

Yes, this board favors the caller, but they’re unlikely to hit it hard. If they call with just a piece of it, you’re probably good.

Poker is about taking risks
Playing my way, you could lose
Playing their way, you could lose
You can’t make a big deal out of it
Make a decision and don’t look back

This is complete and utter nonsense when everyone has less than pot left. There are more than enough smaller overpairs and draws in their ranges that'll shrug and go for it.

Really? In a five-way pot? They'll call off an over-bet jam from the pre-flop 3B'er, for over 100BB's, with worse 1P?

They didn't double-flat pre with their middling pairs hoping to get it in with just 1P on this board. They were set-mining, hoping to stack a donk with a big over-pair. They're not going to shrug-call a jam from the pre-flop 3B'er in a pot that went 5 ways with 77-TT.

If they 3B 99+ pre, they don't even have 99 or TT in range, so we're hoping they shrug get it in with 77 and 88.

I agree they'll call with their good draws, but the best draws are getting the correct odds to call. A combo like 76cc has 20 outs to a flush, straight, trips, or 2P.

When loose players double-flat small raises from MP/LP, it's not impossible that they're in here with stupid combos like 42s or 74s that just flopped a straight. They certainly could have flopped 2P or a set. Any 1P combo with the board is likely to be a pair + draw.

If we bet small, those smaller over-pairs will feel pressure to continue by calling, and their 2P+ will feel pressure to raise. If we shove, we're just letting our opponents play perfectly, by letting their worse over-pairs off the hook, and forcing them to only call with better hands and their best draws.

Against four ranges of ATC, we have around 28% equity here. The most optimistic scenario is we're up against exactly 88, 99, TT, and JJ, and we have close to 60%. We actually need multiple opponents to have lower over-pairs for us to have a fighting chance.

As soon our opponents start showing up with draws, our equity plummets to under 30%. If we're up against JJ, 77, 44, and 65o, we're under 20%. If someone has 66 and someone else has A2cc, we have 4% equity. Against 87dd, 6c6s, 4c4d, and A2cc, we have 3%.

It's hard to find realistic combinations of four hands our opponents could have which have us in great shape. Any realistic combination of 2P+, 1P + a draw, and pure draws has us drawing pretty slim.

We made a blunder not 3B'ing to a larger size pre. We don't need to compound that blunder by torching the rest of our stack jamming into multiple loose regs with uncapped ranges.

A 70% favorite??? Against four uncapped ranges???

The best case scenario here is we're up against four over-pairs from 88 to JJ and we have 60%. More likely we have 30% against the field, and we're a 3 to 1 dog against the hands that call our jam, which are likely to be 2P+. At best, someone calls with 1P + a draw. Even against A4cc, we're around a 2 to 1 dog.

This is likely a raked game, so we're incentivized to raise bigger pre, to take it down pre-flop / pre-rake. We'll be OOP to the field post-flop, and three of our four opponents have capped themselves by flatting the UTG open. That's an enormous incentive to raise bigger, to ISO the dead money.

If we "put the pressure on" here, with just 1P, we're just funneling our opponents into continuing with hands that have us beat and high-equity draws. We should be doing the opposite, trying to drag them along with their dominated hands.

I'm fine with our preflop sizing. Lol @ result, sounds like a tough game.

With less than a PSB left I think I just sigh jam. I don't think we should be folding this hand at SPR < 1 and the horrendous IO we gave everyone. Crapload of draws to continue, and maybe even some lol overpears (preflop result indicates we might not be dealing with geenyus's here).

Gcluelessgeenyus,perhapssupergeenyus,noobG

These geenyus's just called a *$70* 3bet preflop in a 1/3 NL game after being committed for all of lol $12.

There's no one here that hates going 5way to an SPR of 5 in a bloated raised pot more than I do (which is why I play preflop the way I do) for the reasons you're making here... but this ain't that same spot, imo.

FWIW, if this was an SPR of like 3+, then I agree we've got options to discuss (and they all suck). But not at SPR ~1, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah I know we lose this pot a lot if we get called but I would go ahead and bet. It.all.
Flush draws, straight draws, combos (eg 44, 77), possibly JJ/TT, there are a bunch of hands that will call and often get there but the pot is large so ride that train.
Your alternative is to bet smaller (call off a jam) and have to play guessing games on the turn.

This is the second post today of yours that is criticizing setting up a lol SPR of 1.6 and 1, noting in this case here the first caller got horrendous IO of 7:1.

Obviously some small SPRs of even 3 can be dicey in very multiway pots but mostly because they offered ~okish IO. SPRs of ~1, even very multiway, typically offered horrendous IO so they are perfectly fine.

I mean, what SPR are you aiming for multiway? Less than 0.5? Shove for SPR 0?

FWIW, my technique for deciding 3bet sizing is looking to offer very poor 8:1 IO preflop to the first caller (which we can often do at non-hugenormous stack tables), which in this case would actually be a 3bet to $62 (but I'm fine tacking on some extra $ due to QQ being more vulnerable, OOP, etc.). Maybe I'd go $75 but that's splitting hairs, imo.

GcluelessSPRnoobG

I don't know where to begin, so I'm not even gonna. "OMG, what if we're up against three sets and a straight? We have zero point four percent!!" If this is your approach, then I guess there’s just nothing more to be said. Maybe someone else has the energy to enter into this discussion with you, but I just don't have it. I'm sorry, that’s on me, I admit that. I'm just gonna take this defeat and bow out now.

Preflop we gave the first caller pot odds better than 2:1, the second caller 3:1, etc. That's not ideal when our opponents are all loose, have position on us, and we have a strong but vulnerable hand.

Even if we go a little bit bigger and they all fold, dragging $50 rake free is still a great result and preferable to inducing more action vs 4 live hands where we'll often be flipping or worse when the money gets in.

Can we talk about the preflop sizing because this is pretty bad. You say he's "not price sensitive" (admittedly he sounds like someone who mostly limps) and it's an open and three callers and you are OOP with QQ but make it only 6x. If effective stack is 400 I would probably go to 120 or so. But 100 at an absolute minimum. That's not results orientated either.

You have a pot sized bet left with an overpair? Not much you can do here that's cute, just shove and get called by JJ-99 or so, fold out the random Ace- or King-high hands, and either get called or fold out club draws, some of them have very good equity against you so you're probably fairly indifferent what they do, and get stacked by the sets.

How in the world is anyone going to be remotely profitable against our range getting horrendous preflop IO of ~7:1?

I mean, reverse the situation. We're sitting $400 deep, the nit opens to a mere 20x = $60, and what, we get to call with a lotta hands cuz pot odds or cuz there was another caller in front of us?

Heck, even put yourselves as the Button in this case here, closing the action with 3 callers in front (and I'll let you decide how often that is going to happen to a $70 3bet). What hands do you think are profitable for you here calling a whopping $58 more with a $400 stack?

GcluelessIOnoobG

Um we don't want to put our opponents in profitable spots, that's how we win at poker

Preflop we could have gone a little bigger, but the sizing isn't horrendous. You don't want to go much bigger than 100 or so, otherwise you're pot committed and it's effectively like a worse version of a shove.

On the flop you've just got to jam. It's not a bad result if everyone folds. Even hands like AJd have a fair amount of equity and it's a win to deny that equity. If you're beat you're beat, and if you're never getting called by worse you need to bluff more.

Are you thinking the preflop examples I gave are profitable spots?

Other than premiums, there are no hands that you're going to make profitable by putting in a lol hugenormous 1/7th of stacks preflop.

When posters (such as myself) we're lol'ing at the preflop result, we were clearly (or not so clearly apparently?) making fun of how horrendously bad some of these opponents must truly be. Are some somehow disagreeing with this?

GcluelesshorrendouslybadplayernoobG

Pre seems fine, I just ship it now. We're ahead of a reasonably narrow range that's still wider than it should be and also holds some AK/KK/AA and a few sets. It's also a good result if we just fold everyone out and collect the pot.

I jammed the flop and the UTG tanked about 10 seconds and called. A couple players behind him looked disappointed and folded. The button called. I survived and won a monster pot.

It sounds like I dodged a ton of outs. The button said he had a pair plus a flush and straight draw. UTG said he had a big draw too. I think I absolutely should have raised a little more pre especially with the loose opener to my left. Maybe to 90? After I raised to 70 I felt sick because I realized the UTG would probably call and possibly create a cascade of calls.

If I had AA’s or KK’s how would that change your pre flop sizing? With QQ’s I feel fine if everybody folds. With AA’s I wouldn’t mind one call.