5/10. QQ on low board in 4bet pot

I've never understood why anyone flat calls with TT-QQ pre, and then raises a nothing burger flop.

What's changed? If we were ahead pre, we should still be ahead. If we were behind, we should still be behind.

We were playing our hand as a bluff catcher pre. Raising now is probably over-playing it.

A bluff catcher? It’s QQ. Am not sure where you play, but at least in this game, a reg is far wider than KK+ for value, particularly here where it’s a nice squeeze spot for me from bb

Reasons for raising is that if we flat, we likely give AK two cards to catch up and we allow any pairs below QQ the chance to check back then and make it harder to stack them

Reason for just calling is that it gives those cards the chance to overplay their hand on the turn

Why didn't you 5B pre? Because that would be over-playing your hand?

Does he have bluffs here? If so, why raise, if that will stop him from bluffing? Does he have worse value? If so, why raise, if that will stop him from betting it?

Are you thinking he'll call a raise with worse value? Or are you just trying to protect your hand from being out-drawn?

Just seems to me that we're not repping much if we raise, and our hand plays fine as a check-call.

To him, every hand is a bluff catcher. That's all he does.

"FAR" wider? How far? Your decision in this hand hinges completely on this question.

Jamming now requires 35% equity to break even. You have about 38% against JJ+. Against TT+ you have more like 50%. So it's really important we accurately define V's range here.

Is he wider than this? If so, it's a clear shove.

Board: 5d3d5s
Equity Win Tie
MP2 63.67% 61.50% 2.17% { JJ+, A5s, AdKd }
BB 36.33% 34.16% 2.17% { QdQh }

I don't like calling and checking turn. We lose too much value against the weakest parts of his range that way.

You should be committed after putting in more than 1/3 of your stack. You needed to fold to the 4Bet pre-flop to get away from QQ, it’s too late now.

I would call and then donk-shove the turn
This guy could have 77 again

It’s a little scary that villain called down in the hh and he’s firing here, but counting on his questionable decisions.

To be clear, I wasn't saying I would play this hand as a bluff catcher. I was saying that when we don't 5B pre, then it seems like we're playing it as a bluff catcher. Alternatively, it would seem like we were just set-mining.

If we aren't bluff catching and weren't set mining, what are we doing? Are we trapping? Are we just evaluating as we go?

If we think he's wider than just AA/KK/AK, did we consider 5B'ing pre? Seems like we should consider it, if the alternative is playing the rest of the hand from OOP as the PFC. Would we also flat with AA/KK/AK, or are we capped now?

I was simply pointing out that I don't see the reasoning behind raising flop, after just flatting the 4B pre, when the flop wouldn't appear to change anything, and we still have almost a PSB left behind.

Are we viewing this as a jam or fold decision? Why is that, when he's c-betting for a smallish size? Is calling flop and jamming clean turns not an option? Why not? Is calling flop and folding turn if he barrels not an option? Why not?

If we're bluff catching, why not let him continue to bluff? If we were set-mining, are we turning QQ into a bluff now that we missed? That seems insane.

If we were trapping, are we springing the trap now? Why now, and not on the turn? Do we think that he'll call a jam with worse value? How much worse value does he have in a 4BP?

Do we think he'll call a jam with a draw, but will check back or fold his draws if we donk-jam turn? How many draws can he have here, when we have the Qd in our hand? Is he 4B'ing AXs combos worse than AQs, when he's IP?

That 1/3 stack pot commitment threshold is pre-flop. Post-flop, the threshold goes down. We're not pot committed yet.

Folding pre is debatable. If we know V can be wider than KK+, it's closer to a 5B than a fold, though V's 4B sizing is large enough to cause concern, and may make it a closer decision, given the stack depth.

Can't see how the prior hand has any bearing here. Doubtful he's 4B'ing as wide as 77 pre, when he just completed from the BB with 77 in that hand.

In the prior hand, he had a PP that was 2nd pair to the board, where the board was dry and disconnected. He called a 1/2 pot c-bet and then a smallish turn barrel on a brick. His decision wasn't all that questionable. He could easily have the best hand there.

I wouldn't assume V is making a lot of obvious mistakes when he's a 5/10 reg buying into the game for the max and regularly topping off. This is partly why I don't understand the reasoning for raising here. If there's a clue about what V has, telling us what we should do, I missed it.

Really just a matter of what villains 4b range is - from my experience of playing 5/10 that's usually KK/AA, but you would know better then all of us. It's also not like your range is hidden - your squeezing out of the BB and calling a 4b, so you should be fairly strong. If you think he has KK/AA only 4bing then fold pre - if you think he has AK then call pre and call the flop. That's all you really need to continue in this hand - the turn I might fold regardless though as I'd expect AK just to check it back OTT assuming there's no improvement.

I agree with pokerfan655.

My pov was that his 4 bet range was sth like JJ+ AK and then some suited A broadway and suited A wheel combos

AP I'm calling flop to x/c every street unless a K or A hits in which case I fold or a Q hits. This is about the best flop we can expect in order to bluffcatch AK.

Caveat is I don't play these stakes.

Against some regs, this is a fold to the 4bet pre (reg doesn't necessarily mean good, even at 5/10, in my experience at least).

If you call the 4bet oop, at this stack depth, I guess you "have to" shove on this flop.

Which of those hands lead the flop?

Which hands would call your jam?

My previous post showed a range against which a jam breaks even.

If he calls with more hands than are in that range, then it's a +EV shove.

If he's betting flop with more hands than are in that range, then a shove is +EV because of the fold equity.

yeah, it's obviously hard because he's a total unknown. I can't imagine he's 4 betting 99-1010, but if he's 4 betting JJ then it's of course a possibility.

I would be leading flop here with my entire range I think, if I 4 bet and was checked to on this board. Given how many people think his 4 bet is KK+, his bluffs are printing $$

his view of my range is key too. It feels like I'm weighted heavily towards 1010-QQ (I would have flatted AA to his 4 too, but he's not to know that) but does he think I have AK, AQs hands that might check give up here?

Come on in - the water’s warm!

Tbh, it’s by far the best value game in the room now given the rake considerations. We always flip the 2/5-10 into a 5/10 when the game starts

3b should be a bit bigger.

Without consulting a sim, I'd personally call now esp with the Qd, but whacky plays abound at this SPR.

If this is a nice squeeze spot, I'd like to see what a not nice one is.

Opponent would have to be extremely bad to 4b JJ- in EP vs BB and think they're doing it for value.

interesting...it's a little over 5x to a raise and one caller. What would you be raising to?

I think probably, ranges are wider in my game than in many others round the world at these stakes. Regs will often 3 bet from bb in a spot like this with a lot of suited broadways, some Ax suiteds etc probably AQo type hands.

you sqz from BB, your range isnt super wide here given you can close the action. let him barrel his Ace highs, it feels gross i know, but its the best play to extract the most

$145 is 1.5p, so I’d probably round up and throw 6 greens out there.

Depending on frequencies for each of those hands, that’s not really any wider than it’s supposed to be, in which case JJ is closer to a fold than a (value) 4b.

Thank you.

I thought I was taking crazy pills reading this thread.

whatever range you think reg is 4bing, its tighter

I keep in mind that this is kangaroo poker, so the villains are going to be wider than 'merica poker.

SPR is under 2. I'd just call. A raise is only going to fold out the part of his range that you beat. If you are behind, he's just going to jam your raise. Sometimes you just have fade 2-6 outs.
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