Multiway to the flop as the PFR in late position, how to play a drawing hand?

deuce is also on my ignore list. if everyone does likewise he can have fun talking to himself.

and check flop next time. i dont see what a small bet accomplishes other than put you in spots like this. if you have something like TT, then a bet makes a lot more sense.

i honestly might even check AK here vs. the field. it depends on how likely it is someone will take advantage on the turn by CRIng into what they perceive is a capped range.

PLEASE ignore me.

Listen to everyone else in this thread who shovels money into a pot with 3% equity. Keep doing that. Tell your friends. Get everyone in on it. Follow all the advice in these forums except mine.

When someone bet/3bets a straight-flush flop....."he could have ATC!"

When Villain has lots of worse hands that will pay off a value bet....."Check!"

When we're 5 ways with no possible hand we can target for value..... "Bet $100"

"range-check"

"range-bet"

"But GTO says....."

Please listen to all those people and amplify their voices as much as you can.

Don't listen to the guy telling you how to actually win money. You don't deserve it.

Sorry
Can’t get past the arrogance to care what you think. You want attention, the rest of us are discussing poker. You could present yourself and your ideas in a non-abrasive way and you choose not to. Nobody shows up at the forum to be attacked and certainly not by a know it all. It’s like you’re on a crusade and it’s kinda sad nobody cares.

What you lack and could gain from this forum is wisdom. But you can’t listen when you think you’re a genius. I don’t imagine you will learn from all this - wasting your time.

I tried that. There was a thread about set mining where I was called out for not accounting for the risk of a re-raise behind our call. Yet the receipts clearly showed that I explicitly illustrated all of that math multiple times. And despite being spopn-fed the post ID numbers, at least two people STILL denied that those posts even existed. That kind of oblivious stubbornness is absolutely intolerable. And that's just one example.

Take this thread for another example. GWF is trying to tell us that villains have RANGES of non-nut flush draws. Yet card removal for our hand and the board make that virtually impossible. We literally have a poker player, giving poker advice, without even knowing how many cards are in the damn deck. He's suggesting we push money into the pot with less than 3 percent equity when called. That kind of garbage, presented in the context of a condescending retort, cannot be allowed to stand.

All the other quotes in my previous post are REAL. One of these whales actually said that a bet/3b on a straight-flush flop could be "any two cards".

"range-checking" and "range-betting" aren't things that actually exist. They're dumb terms made up by grifters calling themselves poker coaches. There is no universe where one play applies to every poker situation. That's not a thing. It's just lazy thinking used by deluded losers who try to substitute a bunch of technical jargon for sound poker advice.

Every thread goes like this.....

OP: How do I play this hand?
Forum: We suggest this -EV spew
Me: That's wrong because of this information, and this math
Forum: Shut up, troll!!

I can only conclude that you're just upset at having your bad advice called out with facts, logic, and reason. The response to my posts is NEVER poker based. Or if there is some kind of poker-based response, it's utter nonsense. GWF in this thread is a great example. Dude ignored how many cards are in the deck just so he could argue with me. Of course my response is going to to be harsh.

Honestly, it's this. God knows sub's called us idiots (deservingly, a lot of the time), but he does it in a way that makes you go, "Huh. Yeah, I've been stupid. Go buy a solver license and start learning already."

You've decent insight. Just stop being a complete prick, and people might consider what you have to say. Or just continue insulting people, w/e.

The difference is that sub is providing useful information. 2+2 has always had posters who are handing out free nuggets of gold but don't feel the need to be nice about it. It's also always had antagonistic trolls, whose ego significantly outweighs their talents.

Warms my heart to see everyone put the 2nl drooler on ignore.

Time for another account little man.

If you had bet small, then folded to the raise from the larger stack, that's really not a bad result.

That line minimizes your loss against a dominating draw, although I think $85 is too big. A $50 bet like I suggested will get called by stuff like 8x and pocket pairs smaller than a king, that will then fold to further aggression on the turn.

I literally make a living playing this way. Put a small bet out, get our opponents to give away the strengths of their hands, then respond accordingly.

The real mistake was going all in over the top of the raise.

Preflop
V1 loose rec, limps $10, wide range,
You raise to $45, isolate limper, build pot
V2 tag pro calls, strong range, Qx, AQ, mid pairs
V3 SB rec, V4 BB rec, wide speculative hands
V1 calls, sees flop cheaply
Flop Ks 8s 3h, pot 225, 5 way
Action xs to you, you have FD + overcards.
Pros for checking, keeps pot small multiway, let's you see a free turn. Cons, you're letting hands like Kx 8x 3x see a cheap flop, , you miss fold equity. Against limpers and a TAG behind, checking can be safe but might let V2 realise equity easily.
Pros for betting, can fold out hands like AQ, AJ, AT, weak pairs and Qx 9x. Builds pot if you hit flush or straight equity. Defines ranges of opponents
Cons, mulitiway, so you're equity share drops if you get called
Sizing considerations, 1/2 2/3 pot, for 5way you generally want smaller sizing 1/2 to keep weaker hands in while still folding out some air. 110/130 should be good
V2, likely has Kx, AK, QQ+, or may call lightly with suited connectors, difficult to fold
V1, will call a lot, not fold to often
V3/V4, likely call or fold based on bet size
A bet here isn't likely to get folds from everyone, the primary goal is to build a pot when you hit a flush or straight and maybe take down the pot if everyone missed

Just because you say something, doesn't make it profitable.

what 8x hands are you even talking about?? Maybe if one of these villains is drunk and having a seizure, he could call with 87hh. T8hh?? I'm reaching now. 98hh. That's three combos. And what pairs are floating this flop FIVE WAYS?? You think 77 is gonna peel here? Are you for real?

This was a single-raise pot that we opened over 1 limper and went 5 ways. Nobody has QQ/JJ. Maybe I'll give you some discounted number of TT/99 combos. let's say half.

So your smaller bet brings in 9 or so combos to the range that calls. Yet there are still 70+ combos of NFD's, all the sets, and tons of Kx. And by the way, all the hands you added are beating you, so you're not exactly helping your equity here. You're still in pretty bad shape against 80% of the range that calls you. And since you're unlikely to get called by just one person when you bet that small, their overlapping ranges means there's like a 1 in 3 chance you're drawing dead.

So, what turns are you barreling Professor?

70+ combos of nut flush draws? WTF are you talking about? What's the matter, you can't count to 12? A 1 in 3 chance we're drawing dead? There's not even a 1 in 3 chance that the As was paired with another spade in someone's hand before the flop.

I don't think your mind is cut out for poker.

It's pretty simple dude. You're up against 8 cards (that's 4 two card hands). Besides your hand, your opponents' cards and the flop cards there are another 39 cards that they don't have. Have you considered the possibility that the hands you're scared of are sitting there in the deck or the muck?

It's quite likely no one has the NFD, a king or a set. In that case either everyone folds to your small flop bet (a great result, that's why they call it a semibluff), or you get called by some sort of Q8 type garbage and take the pot down with another bet on the turn. Have you ever played live poker? I mean that seriously. You're not up against solver ranges.

The strategy after betting small on the flop is pretty simple. If either of the reasonable players with the deeper stacks continue against your small flop bet you shut down. If you get called by the fish, those are the players calling with stuff like 77 and 8x, so you barrel almost every turn. I'm likely betting turn against the fish on any non-board-pairing card. BTW, if 77 doesn't peel on the flop that's a good thing for us, but if they call we just take the pot down with another bet so it doesn't matter.

Do you have any concept of what defense frequencies are when facing a $50 flop bet? You clearly don't.

If our opponents don't continue with more than sets, Kx and NFDs then our $50 bet would likely be immediately profitable with any two cards. It only has to get through 19% of the time with a hand that has 0 equity to be a profitable bet.

But what if none of this works and no one folds? We can still make a flush and win a big pot if someone does have something like a set or a king.

Anyway I don't know why I'm even engaging with you. If you want coaching from now on it's $500 an hour.

While you're screwing around playing micro stakes in your mom's basement I'm busy making a living playing this game. I enjoy talking poker with players who are both better and worse than myself, but you're a total novice who thinks they have it all figured out, and talking to you is a waste of time.

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. I think you know what I said. Kx, sets, and NFD's are 70+ combos.

Yeah. I pulled that number out of my ass, but it's actually pretty close. You have four opponents who flat called a single raise pre-flop. How many hands could they have? Wanna say 250? That seems reasonable. The ranges I've defined in previous posts plus the TT/99 you insist on shoe-horning into this problem account for 85-ish hands. So there's a 1 in 3 chance that any one villain will continue against a bet. You can ask GTOWizard to crunch the numbers for you, or you can trust me when I say that the probability that **exactly** two villain's continue is 29%.

And I think in most of those cases you'll be up against a NFD and Kx, against which you have 3% equity.

So you got me. There's not a 1 in 3 chance we're drawing dead. There's a 29% chance we're drawing to 3%. Good catch. You're a real whiz.

Yeah, getting lucky when you make fishy -EV plays is a great result. That doesn't mean you should do it.

You need to actually DO the math. Against the ranges I gave, your semibluff gets through *exactly* 19% of the time. Thus it's break even. Do you make a living playing break even poker??

If you insist on shoving 77 in villain's ranges, then it's getting through LESS than 19% of the time, and it's -EV.

I flat out don't believe you. What you just said is absolutely not real. You're lying. I'm calling you a liar.

There is no universe where you "shut down" on a spade turn, or even an offsuit ten. You're going to go broke.

No, you're just unemployed. that's not the same thing.

If everyone folds 19% of the time your semibluff is not break even. It's break even with 72o. You have equity.

You said:

I think you can think this one through and figure out why the odds that one of your opponents has the NFD are far less than 29%. I have faith in you. Keep trying.

How "far" is "far less"? Look, I'll admit I've been shooting from the hip on some of this math. But let's work it out in detail and see how far off I am.

How many hands are villain's bringing to the flop? I originally suggested 250, but that's a TON of hands. I tried to list and count the flat-calling range from villains. It's tough because half of them are out of position. But taking an AVERAGE of all four ranges, this seems reasonable to me:
TT-22,A2s+,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AJo+,KJo+,QJo

That's 187 hands. Within that range are 65 hands that I think will continue against a bet. They are:
88,33,K7s+,AsTs,As9s,Ts9s,As7s,As6s,7s6s,As5s,6s5s,As4s,As3s,As2s,AKo,KTo+

However, you want to add 77,99,TT and somehow 8x. I'll give you half the pairs, 3 combos of A8s, and the hh combos of 89 and 87. In total you're adding 14 combos for a total of 79.

79 out of 187 combos will continue against a bet. Each villain is folding 58% of his range. The chances your semi-bluff gets through are:

.58 x .58 x .58 x .58 = 11%

not even close to 19%. That settles one issue.

moving on...

Of the 79 hands that call, 8 of them are Nut flush draws. Roughly 10% for each villain. Depending on how many villain's called there is somewhere between a 10% and 35% chance you're up against the NFD. So that probably averages out to something like 1 in 5 times. Ok, so it's 20%, not 29% like I said. Still...that's a super high frequency of getting our money in with a dominated hand.

$150 is good. too small and they wont give us credit for a king. it also leaves enough that if V3 jams we can re-open the action so the players in between will have to think about this before acting too.

Your numbers are still way off but I'm not wasting the time to do the math for you. To begin with the unpaired portions of your villain's ranges are more like RFI ranges, not capped limp call ranges. It's not a reasonable assumption to give them full frequencies of AK, KQ KJ etc. and leave out all the junky 97s, 86s, 54s that people limp and call with.

The whole reason to make a small bet with a widish range in our spot is to push our equity advantage because we have all of those strong Kx and big pairs at full frequencies and they don't. Anyway good luck with your life. You're going to need it.

No they aren't. And the fact you won't provide any of your own numbers is kind of a tell at this point. This thread is full of me doing mathematical analysis, using formulas, logic, reason, and real numbers. If you disagree, the onus is on you to provide an alternate calculation. You keep posting how I'm wrong, but never quite say HOW. You just boast, and posture, and perform thinking that's going to convince people. It doesn't.

At this point, you've cornered yourself in the maths. If you want V's to have wider ranges, then it makes your semi-bluff even more of a blunder than it already is. If you want them to have narrower ranges, then the chances you get called by dominating hands goes up. Regardless of where you think the "holes" are in my analysis, plugging them requires you to be wrong about at least three other things you've said in this thread. So pick a lane dude.

You don't do the math for yourself!!!!! I've caught you multiple times in this thread (and in many other threads) just posting some concocted slop that sounds ok, but doesn't hold up to the math.

Here's a great example:

Let's start with your garbage reads. V's are described in the OP as "unknowns". However, you've now decided that they are "fish" who would flat-call a bet with 3rd pair and no re-draw in a five way pot. That's a pretty big leap. You've IMAGINED information necessary to make your dumb bet seem less dumb. You invented that out of thin air because you needed it so you could pretend the math works. That's delusional and not sound poker analysis at all.

But it gets worse!! You are saying that 2 villains have calling ranges that crush us and the other 2 villains have the same range plus a handful of combos of 77. The range that has us crushed is about 65 hands, and pocket 7s is at most 6 hands. So you want to "shut down" against the perceived good players but blast off on the turn against someone who is folding 10% of their range??

Make that math work. I challenge you to show me an EV equation for this play that ends in a positive number.

I know you think this is some kind of "gotchya" but the math just isn't on your side. First of all, only one player limped. And it's one of the players you think we should "shut down" against if they call. You already said that guy doesn't have the junky hands we can barrel against on the turn. YOU SAID THAT!! YOU, not me, YOU!

Next, why don't you just state the range you think make sense? You won't because it will just prove me right. V's are still going to have close to 200 combos, of which 70 or 80 will call a bet. Your "semi-bluff" idea will NOT be profitable (more math you botched in this thread). And the range that calls you will still be sets, Kx, and NFD's. Add 77 if you want to, it doesn't affect the numbers at all.

BTW - Who are these villains who are loose-passive enough to call flop with 77, but not loose-passive enough to flat AKo pre

Equity advantage?? You really think someone with KJ gives a damn about your uncapped range????

OMG you are RUINED!! You have been destroyed, duped, decimated, and literally conquered by poker grifters. You've been sold a basket of dog **** from people who want you to lose money. Your charts, and solvers, and range advantages have no bearing in real life. You're trying to utilize a style of play that was designed to break even against itself. You're worried about "balance" in a game that plays 20 hands an hour against unknowns.

I'm parroting Charlie Carrell here, but someone should be screaming this in your face. Your opponents have a range....what are you going to do about it?

Your opponents ranges are not so wide that a semi-bluff will get through 4 people (ever). And the ranges that call you have you absolutely smothered. Betting here is lighting money on fire. It's really that simple

If you think its more complicated, then show your work.

I'm not showing my work, because at least 90% of your posts are trolls. You sure put a lot of effort into your troll posts though, but I'm not falling for it.

I know the way I play poker works. I keep records. I currently have a very real tax bill due. Anyway this is my last response to you.

Without reading the car crash of the last few posts too closely, there are a few problems here:

1. Our non-nut draw can get into a lot of bother
2. The one player most likely to make a move has position on us
3. The other players are short stacked

I don't mind a very small flop bet to get rid of the medium pairs and random Ace-highs (and hopefully get position), but it'll be to a sizing where the nut flush draws won't be going anywhere, so it's probably one and done. If one of the rec players in front calls, they have Kx or a (probably nut) draw, we check back turn and see a free river without overcomplicating things.

You can also cheerfully fold to a raise from anyone

Which sentence do you think is a troll?

This is a very lame tactic. your garbage advice got called out for the erroneous trash that it is, and rather than own it, you pivot to ad hominem nonsense.

Rather than engage with the facts, it's much easier to just call me a troll and pretend you're right.