The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition
Bad beats are part of the game. I understand that. But after absorbing more than my fair share on Poker Stars I switched
I love how John always posts on here that his calculations have been checked by gypsy team and on gypsy team that even a 2+2 moderator agrees with him.
While in reality the people on gypsy team and here are telling him he is wrong.
Guys, it's funny to discuss disargeements with my info on THIS forum.
Looks like 2+2 probability team doesn't see acceptable arguements against rigging the game on iPoker.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25/pr...
But of course your position "900 hands is not enough to prove the game is rigged" (while it's enough to "guess" 20 starting hands in a row to prove the game is not random with a comprehensive confidence level) is much more significant than position of mathematicians. I'm one of them btw. I got a math's (theory of prob. and math. statistics) education. What about you? 😀
Guys, play, win! I'm happy for you. Seriously.
But I'm here from time to time to keep the situation clear :P
(I hope to read conversations with TheWaddy's participation. Surprised he got such an energy to discuss the stuff here! Nice to see at least anyone fighting for the justice.)
Looks like 2+2 probability team doesn't see acceptable arguements against rigging the game on iPoker.
Lol first of all there is no 2+2 probability team :p
Secondly, Have you even read your the thread you've posted?? There is not one participant that agrees with you. Literally not one.
But of course your position "900 hands is not enough to prove the game is rigged" (while it's enough to "guess" 20 starting hands in a row to prove the game is not random with a comprehensive confidence level) is much more significant than position of mathematicians. I'm one of them btw. I got a math's (theory of prob. and math. statistics) education. What about you?
You've asked the last question before Johnny and I answered. I got a degree in econometrics.
And your statement that its enough to guess 20 starting hands in a row is irrelevant because you never made this correct guess, its just a hypothetical, like so many things are with you.
I did once saw a stream of a certain disgruntled Johnny that tried to guess what the algorithm would bring him.
He said stuff like "because of the algorithm villain never has a big hand here". So you shoved pocket 5's for around 80bb and he snap-called with AA 😃😃😃
It was so enteraining to watch. Unfortunately you did the very spineless thing of removing the stream afterwards. Not very credible stuff Johnny.
I hope to read conversations with TheWaddy's participation. Surprised he got such an energy to discuss the stuff here! Nice to see at least anyone fighting for the justice.
What justice? Because you two are believing opposite things Johnny.
He always claims it cant be proven if poker is rigged and therefore its useless to ask for evidence or provide it.
You claim you've provided the evidence that poker is rigged.
Even you must understand that these two statements don't coincide together 😉
Thank you 😀
In fact... It's going well for others, but not for me ((
For others, because after complaints towards previous coaches of my every next pupil during around half a year, I had to visit one of Russian tennis forums and describe almost all the techniques and tennis training process to stop other coaches fooling tennis players... Yes, tennis is a crazy sphere where coaches used to do "easy money" while missunderstanding basic stuff, committing unacceptable mistakes of coaching process. I wasted some energy for this. And i'm a bit disappointed with the current Russian society. While I went against my own colleagues, no a bitch supported me. While saying "oh I can't find a good coach, I can't improve my gaming cause of that" in personal talks.
Of course I mentioned that while discussions. And some people reacted. But I'm a bit jealous to your civilized societies, where critics is considered as the only and the most effective method of progressing, of making life better. But not in Russia... LOL.
For me it's not going good, because even though i'm coaching, I can't get my health back. I don't like the way I play.
I am working on it, though. Still, being able to coach is a result after I couldn't have walked for 3 years... But I can't call all this a normal life.
I remember this, and it's good, seriously.
Still that phrase regarding "900 hands are not enough to prove the room is rigging the game" gave me some information that you are not fluent with statistics :P
He said stuff like "because of the algorithm villain never has a big hand here". So you shoved pocket 5's for around 80bb and he snap-called with AA 😃😃😃
It was so enteraining to watch. Unfortunately you did the very spineless thing of removing the stream afterwards. Not very credible stuff Johnny.
Yes, that was funny (( I didn't manage to show abilities. Hope will never come back to this circus, to be fair.
Predicting is really hard. If we talk about serious predicting like that 55 guess in the start of the tourney. But, lol, folding AQ from button after 2-3 80% all-ins - is too easy stuff to check. Hope guys will manage someday 😉
What justice? Because you two are believing opposite things Johnny.
He always claims it cant be proven if poker is rigged and therefore its useless to ask for evidence or provide it.
You claim you've provided the evidence that poker is rigged.
Even you must understand that these two statements don't coincide together 😉
If I got TheWaddy the right way, he means, that it's impossible to prove due to formal nuances - Gambling supervision authorities are not able/don't will to consider any proofs.
I don't remember he said that it was impossible to prove it statistically. Of course it's possible to prove it statistically with some level of confidence. In my case it's 99.999% + And might be more then enough in many spheres of life. The problem is that any information is simply ignored by special bodies, who are supposed to regulate the sphere of gambling
Its not crazy, its rigged. Many people haven proven this.
There are elite level players who never reached the top because ATP is rigging the tennis balls.
Still that phrase regarding "900 hands are not enough to prove the room is rigging the game" gave me some information that you are not fluent with statistics
It kinda depends whats in those 900 hands as well 😉
And to counterpoint, your results, discussions and streams about poker gave me the information that you are not fluent with online poker and the algorithm😉
Yes, that was funny (( I didn't manage to show abilities. Hope will never come back to this circus, to be fair.
It was not funny that you quickly deleted the stream afterwards, it was deceitful. Because the stream clearly showed you're talking bullocks. Too bad you say you wont come back to the circus because I would love to see you try again on live-stream. With a 99.999999% proven algorithm what are the odds you will fail miserably again?
Then I have to disappoint you Johnny. You clearly havent read up on the thread so well. And to be fair, I dont blame you for that.
But the very much said and repeated many times that its IMPOSSIBLE to prove poker is rigged. So if he's right about that, all your hard work is completely meaningless and done for nothing. He didnt say authorities wont act on proof, he said numerous times it simply cannot be proven.
I could have quoted many posts of him but not to clutter it up I chose one:
Get it in to your heads guys, its a debate cos no-one but no-one can prove it either way after 25yrs +!!!!! Thats why we stilll debate it! Stop wasting your time with requests for hand samples!!! This thread would not be even a thing if it was provable either way!!!!
He clearly means it cant be proven and it hasnt been proven, even your hand samples are not seen as evidence.
So heartbreaking as it is, you clearly didnt find an ally in him.
Despite what I just said and said in the past (hey, you know me by now, we disagree heavily on the main topic of this thread) this i dont like to read. Hopefully you're not in too bad of a shape and will be able to get your health back.
Seriously, very best of luck with that.
... Too bad you say you wont come back to the circus because I would love to see you try again on live-stream. With a 99.999999% proven algorithm what are the odds you will fail miserably again? ...
I'd like to see Johnmir live-stream another session or two, as well. As you say, if he has proved the rig to his stated nth degree, he is absolutely bound to get it right this time or the next, and instead of being spurned by all of those who don't believe him, he'd be hailed by every player whose money he will save, in the future.
I'm hoping that instead of his making excuses not to play again, he will realise it's his actual duty to prove to his fellow players that the game is definitely rigged.
I think we have clearly got two sets of people representing two separate passions, so opinions will be poles apart.
We got 35% of players who are poker enthusiasts and 56% who are gaming enthusiasts.
The gaming enthusiasts simply only play this version of poker for the excitement gaming has to provide … they are gamers afterall, which is all about ‘entertainment’.
If the Moderator could explain the major demand and indeed, the major revenue of poker sites … which is now ‘jackpot, spin and go’ type 3 man tournaments lasting around 5min.
Do you feel these were developed to bring in ‘poker players’ or do you think this modern day version was brought in to bring in and fulfill the demands of the ‘impatient gamer’?
Do you feel a tournament that lasts an average of 5 minutes is conducive to an all out poker player, which demands patience and discipline or to someone who just wants action?
Just an honest reply to those questions would be good.
Are you going to deny online poker has gone from just normal slow level poker, to versions that are over very quickly and do not demand traditional poker skills?
The reason poker moved away from slow blinds, decent starting stack poker …. to manic, all in, all over in 5mins tournaments…. Is there was a waning demand for poker and an increased demand for gaming during recent times.
Are you going to deny this …. Think carefully, as ALL poker sites advertising is geared towards this version of ‘poker’ .
How did you define that the 56% of people who clicked "Not rigged" are gaming enhusiasts and the 35% of people who clicked "Yes rigged" are poker enthusiasts?
Even for you, that sounds a lot too coincidental and completely made up.. "yea all those people who agree with me really love the game while all the others just love gaming"
And its not just way too coincidental, its also exactly wrong.
Because I clicked "Not rigged" and I am not a gamer at all. In fact I never had a gaming station/computer or whatever and the only game I play at my PC is online poker.
Also, most pro's get at the level they are by really loving poker. And I can tell you that are not many pro's out there who think the game they are crushing is rigged.
Oh, and before you counter that with "of course they wouldnt say its rigged because they crush". Remember that what you always said is that the rigged RNG favors terrible players and punishes good players. So these pro's are not winning because of the rigged RNG but despite of it.
I think it is in fact really funny that you claim the 35% of people who clicked poker is rigged are poker enthusiasts. They, and you especially, seem to harbour to much hatred towards poker and never seem to have a healthy relationship with online poker. They also are losing or just barely winning. They also feel the game is rigged against them. Yet, this is the group of people who are really in love with poker LOLOLOL
Oh and last note, yes there is more "quick action" formats in poker than before. Its a quick rake grab and I agree these formats arent as complex as "regular poker".
But normal cash games & tournaments still make up for the vast majority of volume on any major site and its not even close.
I think we have clearly got two sets of people representing two separate passions, so opinions will be poles apart.We got 35% of players who are poker enthusiasts and 56% who are gaming enthusiasts.The gaming enthusiasts simply only play this version of poker for the excitement gaming has to provide … they are gamers afterall, which is all about ‘entertainment’.If the Moderator
Awww, grandpa is sad that poker evolved and left him behind....
4 hands where a beat occurs in PLO.... Thats it. Finally the irrefutable evidence we were waiting for.
On a more serious note, if you know its rigged and even your name says they ruined poker, why do you keep playing there? And if the script says every turn there is a dead card couldnt you abuse that algorithm to make a fortune there? You would have such an edge over people who dont realize this script exists?
And on a very serious note, 4 loose hands are not a pattern. If its happening "way way way too often" collect your hands from GG, import them and show that the stats over the entire sample are "way way way too off" from what it should be.
And since you say its always on the turn, it would be even easier to show this statistical discrepancy.
It wont take you more than an hour and you would actually have some strong evidence.
But since you named yourself GGruinedPoker I am sure taking an hour out your day to prove they are rigging the cards wont be too much work.
So I am looking forward to seeing those results 😉
Im still playing cause im good enough to still win and the ‘program’ isnt always active.
And i cant play on stars or acr from my country
Im really bad at hud stuff and importing hands. Which hud would u recommend ?
Im still playing cause im good enough to still win and the ‘program’ isnt always active.
First of, what does it mean that the 'program' isnt always active?
Is this one of those thewaddy-like coincidental conveniences meaning that when you dont get 2outered the program is off but when you do get 2outered its on...
Because in that case I will always throw a 6 when I throw a dice, unless my arm-program isnt active of course.
Anyway, that was my sarcasm. Here's the advice.
You dont need a HUD, but hand histories.. I'll explain.
Open Pokercraft from GG where you can filter your hands for download, make sure you include everything.
Now you have downloaded them to your PC you have the data to analyze, all you need is a program that can show all this data in 1 view.
There are multiple good programs for this, I would recommend Hand2Note but Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker are also fine imo.
There you can create a filter to show if the mathemical impossibilties (like villain hitting turn every time) are indeed actually happening or they dont and it might be some comfirmation bias.
But in both cases, its nice to have conclusive data to work with. And you can even test countless other areas to check if there is a pattern there that shouldnt exist with random dealings.
Best of luck with the investigation.
I'd like to see Johnmir live-stream another session or two, as well. As you say, if he has proved the rig to his stated nth degree, he is absolutely bound to get it right this time or the next, and instead of being spurned by all of those who don't believe him, he'd be hailed by every player whose money he will save, in the future.I'm hoping that instead of his making excuses n
Mike, I invested so much energy into this topic... Hope I gave players enough "ideas" to think about, how it works and is the game fair
May be some day, I will come back to check, for example, PokerPlanet (it's a "child" of Pokerstars for Russian players). Would be interesting to perform this kind of stream for this room.
Time to concentrate on my critical problems... Getting back to a good tennis shape 🙄
Despite what I just said and said in the past (hey, you know me by now, we disagree heavily on the main topic of this thread) this i dont like to read. Hopefully you're not in too bad of a shape and will be able to get your health back.
Seriously, very best of luck with that.
Thank you, nice to hear that. I will try my best 😀
And the courts for the tournaments! Many ATP players (including Federer, admit and are not happy with slowing down the surfaces...)
100%
99.999 999 992% is a chance for the game to be rigged (non-random algorithms detected)
Algorithm's logic was not statistically proven. And it's important. If I managed to prove the algorithm statistically - this would be really nice. But I decided it was enough to prove an existance of the algorithm implemented into the software.
But the very much said and repeated many times that its IMPOSSIBLE to prove poker is rigged.
...
He clearly means it cant be proven and it hasnt been proven, even your hand samples are not seen as evidence.
If it is like that, it surprises me to be fair.
But in general everything can be proven (!) but with some concrete level of confidence. It's important detail.
In medicine all the medicaments are going through tests. And almost never this tests give 100% positive effect on every test subject of the group.
Still, people use this and medical commissions allow to sell this medicaments.
Same goes for justice. There is always a chance of an error. Any murderer might appeal to "She just fall down right on my knife. I didn't try to kill her". Is it possible he is fair? Of course. But there is a judge to take the final decision.
The same for gambling sphere. Gambling supervisors of every country take their own final decision regarding the room. In our case - Curacao simply didn't answer to information. Ignored it. In the Waddy's case, responsible bodies admitted that they can't check the information properly. And I thought, that was the basis under his statement "The game can't be proven to be rigged".
Mike, I invested so much energy into this topic... Hope I gave players enough "ideas" to think about
But right now all that energy has been for absolutely nothing and there is nothing to show for it
Instead of giving players ideas how nice would be for players to watch your workings in a live-stream.
If you dont have the energy for a new live-stream where you display the algorithm in action, perhaps you can re-upload the last stream you did and so quickly deleted afterwards?
To freshen up my memory, the removing of the stream had nothing to do with the failure of it right?🙂
99.999 999 992% is a chance for the game to be rigged (non-random algorithms detected)
I decided it was enough to prove an existance of the algorithm implemented into the software.
You can only conclude a game is non-random by such certainty if you see and know what exactly is not random about them.
Just as an example, all heart flushes miss while spade flushes do hit, something like that.
And knowing those non-random outcomes can be perfectly displayed in a live-stream for instance.
You simply cannot claim there is an existence of a non-random algorithm implemented in the software without ever showing whats non-random about it.
Its like me proving the existence of TheWaddy showing up in the epstein files without ever showing where he actually shows up in the epstein files.
Or when I say to you I have proven there are non-random things happening in the game of tennis.. I am sure you would like to know from me what exactly is non-random about it.
But when I say I have proven non-randomness but cant tell you or show you one thing thats non-random about it, you wouldnt believe me right?
This way we can say we've proven any game is rigged without ever having to show why.
This is just simply sloppy work from an analytical point of view. A top analyst would never make this rookie mistake.
If it is like that, it surprises me to be fair.
But in general everything can be proven (!) but with some concrete level of confidence. It's important detail.
So you and TheWaddy disagree, because as I've quoted before, he believes strongly it cant be proven either way.
And it surprises me you read over that statement so many times to be fair.
In the Waddy's case, responsible bodies admitted that they can't check the information properly.
He never showed or delivered one piece of information anywhere.
You just took his word for it because you liked his agenda of poker being rigged.
And in this bias you completely ignored the fact that at no point he had numbers or proof on his side.
Which again is very amateur level analyst stuff.
But maybe times will change.
GGruinedPoker seems to have incriminating hand histories that show how the "program/script" that influences the RNG works.
I've explained to him how he can show this to the world.
If he does deliver on his promise we might have something very soon.
Then again, it might be the same level of unfounded ramblings we've grown accustomed to from TheWaddy, Amazing, MagRailPro and so many others.
All said they had seen the smoking gun time and time again.
And all delivered absolutely nothing.
First of, what does it mean that the 'program' isnt always active?Is this one of those thewaddy-like coincidental conveniences meaning that when you dont get 2outered the program is off but when you do get 2outered its on...Because in that case I will always throw a 6 when I throw a dice, unless my arm-program isnt active of course.Anyway, that was my sarcasm. Here's the advice
It means .. for example imagine being a pokersite and u have to come up with a perfect way to rig the deck for fish and new accounts.
Isnt it briliant that after having the software ready , u would only implement it for lets say around 20-30% of the time. And after itm for about 40-50% of the time
That way , always when people start noticing something it will never be anything super conclusive and u keep them always questioning , when it goes back to normal again for a while.
Isnt that perfect ?
About the hud,
I have tried that a few times with pokertracker but dont know how to proceed. Seems very complicated .
And maybe not even possible for omaha ? Probably is the reason the scam is more active in omaha tournaments. Where they have there go to setups . If i had all my AA allins for omaha we could shut them down tomorrow.
I hadnt played for a while . Ill start downloading the hh ‘s again and after 3 months ill get a guy to help me with converting the hh’s.
Oh nevermind on getting hopes up from GGruinedPoker LOL
for example imagine being a pokersite and u have to come up with a perfect way to rig the deck for fish and new accounts.
Isnt it briliant that after having the software ready , u would only implement it for lets say around 20-30% of the time. And after itm for about 40-50% of the time
Is this just a story that lives in your mind or do you actually witness these numbers.
Because once again, if this in fact is happening it would be easy to show that when ITM there are more beats. A child could do this, he just needs the hand histories. But you've got them.
About the hud,
I have tried that a few times with pokertracker but dont know how to proceed. Seems very complicated .
And maybe not even possible for omaha ? Probably is the reason the scam is more active in omaha tournaments. Where they have there go to setups . If i had all my AA allins for omaha we could shut them down tomorrow.
Once again, you dont need a HUD.
What is not working with pokertracker or what are you unsure about when proceeding?
You import the hands the same way you do from any other site.
Whats complicated about it?
And I know for a 100% fact that pokertracker 4 is able to import omaha hand histories from GG so that cant be the problem either.
And therefore it cant also be the reason that "its happening more in omaha tournaments". Because anybody else can import those hands.
You can download your hands from last 90 days and filter for AA all-ins in omaha. Print screen and you're done. If you can play good poker you can do this cmon man.
I hadnt played for a while . Ill start downloading the hh ‘s again and after 3 months ill get a guy to help me with converting the hh’s
You dont have to convert any hand histories, the downloaded format is just fine for import.
Also, GG's pokercraft allows you to download their hand histories up to 90 days old so you should have a decent sample to work with..
Man o man. How come the people who know for certain poker is rigged because they witness crazy hands every day and want the world to know poker is rigged are always so lazy when it comes to actually showing it. It just doesnt make any sense.
Unless of course, those stories are exaggerated if not complete lies.
It means .. for example imagine being a pokersite and u have to come up with a perfect way to rig the deck for fish and new accounts. Isnt it briliant that after having the software ready , u would only implement it for lets say around 20-30% of the time. And after itm for about 40-50% of the time That way , always when people start noticing something it will never be anything
Translation: "I am very very very bad at poker and this is the bs I keep telling myself to cope with that fact"
Oh nevermind on getting hopes up from GGruinedPoker LOLIs this just a story that lives in your mind or do you actually witness these numbers.Because once again, if this in fact is happening it would be easy to show that when ITM there are more beats. A child could do this, he just needs the hand histories. But you've got them.Once again, you dont need a HUD.What is not working
Last time I tried I couldnt see any overview or dont know how to filter etc .
There are so many buttons and menus. Probably also had an issue impiorting all hands
I even went to their forum to ask etc offered money for help.
Last time I tried I couldnt see any overview or dont know how to filter etc .
There are so many buttons and menus. Probably also had an issue impiorting all hands
I even went to their forum to ask etc offered money for help.
Why is it the people who have all the evidence that online poker is rigged are always the same ones who lack the technological ability to share such evidence? Just like alien abductees whose cameras always malfunction ...
Last time I tried I couldnt see any overview or dont know how to filter etc .
There are so many buttons and menus. Probably also had an issue impiorting all hands
I even went to their forum to ask etc offered money for help.
Wait, last time you werent even sure if you could download/import omaha hands??
Looks like you've imported them now so you're making progress:p
But you are literally the first player who didnt manage to even get an overview, what are you talking about man?
Just go to reports and statistics and you'll see everything you need
You can click More Filters to get to the filters you need... who would have thought huh
There you can filter for hand values and select only AA and preflop all-in
The report you get then is the report you need to show this
Its so easy there is no way this goes over your head, its just not believable at all
But you are honestly saying you figured out how to beat poker, which is a complex game, but cant figure out poker tracker because of "there are so many buttons and menus"? Cmon man, who are you thinking to fool here.
You dont need to offer money on a forum to help. Google and youtube are free.
Search there on poker tracker filters or reports and they will tell you anything you need to know and more.
Why is it the people who have all the evidence that online poker is rigged are always the same ones who lack the technological ability to share such evidence? Just like alien abductees whose cameras always malfunction ...
Its just one of those insane coincidences.
They always know absolutely nothing about trackers and they always seem to make absolutely no effort to learn a tiny bit about them.
Even though its the only thing that can prove a rigged RNG. And the one thing they want the world to know is that poker is rigged.
They see it every day!! Just when it comes to coughing up that data they are suddenly the laziest and stupidest people on the planet. Yet they assure us they are excellent poker players.
It just doesnt make any sense.
Unless of course, and feel free to admit that, all those stories about the same bad beats every day is just a bunch of bullshit.
If not, there is literally no excuse left not to show them.
PS: If you cant import the hands, you can zip them, upload them and send me the link.
I can download the hands and import them for you.
That way we still have the evidence we both want and you also get a first good overview of your stats and this will help any poker player get better.
So its a pure win-win. I dont mind putting in way more effort than you, I want to know which sites are rigged so I wont play there!
What do you think?
Wait, last time you werent even sure if you could download/import omaha hands??Looks like you've imported them now so you're making progress:pBut you are literally the first player who didnt manage to even get an overview, what are you talking about man?Just go to reports and statistics and you'll see everything you needYou can click More Filters to get to the filters you need.
Thats nice of u . We have a deal . Ill dm u the hands tomorrow . Hope i can manage to make a zip 😀
Hey guys, I never told you that I can see the future.
Here's what will happen: The rigturd will dm Slugant his hands, Slugant will look over them and conclude that there is absolutely nothing unusual. The rigturd will then cry and whine like the little bitch that he is.
Just kidding, of course he won't even send the hands.
I now have 7 zip files , I put them all in an empty map.
How do i proceed next ?
