GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

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Thread Cliffs

If a player's career assisted rate on field goals is below 40%, then they're a primary ball-handler that scores mostly unassisted by teammates, aka ball-dominator... But the problem lies with high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, since they have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hurts the team assist ranking over time and increasingly places teammates in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates (1)... The increased spot-up roles for teammates are a direct funnel to Lebron's assists, while reducing his teammates' assists (1), thus causing low-assist teams compared to the typical champion (3).. Low assist teams are the Achilles heel of high-scoring ball-dominators because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists, except the goat choke in the 11' Finals.

Furthermore, by turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction, so they can't be the leading scorer for dynasties or dominant champions, as shown in the previous post above (0 for 12)... Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs or jumpshooters (12 for 12).. This puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside the top 10 all-time (behind the best bigs and jumpshooters)... With ball-dominators outside the top 10, the actual top 10 is a subjective mix of bigs and jumpshooters, such as MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar.. This is actually a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.

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Career Rankings

PER:

Anthony Davis...............4
Dwayne Wade.............21
Kyrie Irving'.................33
Kevin Love...................45
Chris Bosh'..................62
Scottie Pippen..........132
Horace Grant............185


WS/48:

Anthony Davis..........13
Horace Grant............55
Kevin Love.................57
Kyrie Irving...............68
Dwayne Wade..........70
Chris Bosh................76
Scottie Pippen........129


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.........41
Kyrie Irving..............84
Chris Bosh...............89
Kevin Love...............92
Dwayne Wade.......183
D Rodman..............244
Scottie Pippen........NR top 250
Horace Grant..........NR top 250


OBPM:

Anthony Davis...........12
Kyrie Irving................13
Dwayne Wade...........25
Kevin Love.................29
Scottie Pippen...........90
Chris Bosh...............102
Horace Grant..........107


BPM:

Anthony Davis........12
Dwayne Wade........22
Kyrie Irving.............32
Scottie Pippen........38
Kevin Love..............48
Chris Bosh............134
Horace Grant.......176


Peak VORP

Dwayne Wade....... 19
Kevin Love............. 74
Scottie Pippen......102
Anthony Davis..... 140
Chris Bosh........... NR top 250
Kyrie Irving.......... NR top 250
Horace Grant....... NR top 250

Notice that all the real stats that are measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, WS/48, TS%, etc) correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent.

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Thread Cliffs

Pippen averaged between 18-20 ppg while MJ was at 30-35, so there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option then Jordan/Pippen.. Furthermore, everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, except Jordan led Pippen in every SERIES, and by a margin of 10-30 ppg.

Since Pippen is easily the most carried 2nd option in history, he should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played.

Accordingly, aside from faulty media voting, there's no case for Pippen as a top 10 player in the 90's... He never exceeded Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30 all-time, which makes him the most overrated player in history, BY FAR.. This is the statistical and historical record.

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PLAYOFFS

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game]85-93' Jordan[/url]........ 35/7/7.... (6.6 apg)
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game]06-14' Lebron[/url]....... 28/8/6.... (6.4 apg)

Lebron assisted teammates less than Jordan for the first half of their chips, and wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half (no all-defense in his 30's).

So Jordan scored more, passed more, and defended more to win rings.
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Thread Cliffs

Pippen averaged between 18-20 ppg while Jordan was at 30-35, so there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option then Jordan/Pippen.. Furthermore, everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, except Jordan led Pippen in every SERIES, and by a margin of 10-30 ppg.

Since Pippen is easily the most carried 2nd option in history, he should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played.

Accordingly, aside from faulty media voting, there's no case for Pippen as a top 10 player in the 90's... He never exceeded Larry Nance's caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30 all-time - this makes him the most overrated player in history, BY FAR.. This is the statistical and historical record.

Ultimately, Jordan won with a career tertiary option at sidekick that was statistically carried, while Lebron had dominant 1st options at sidekick that outplayed MVP's and often outscored Lebron as well.. Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, while Jordan was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) and also pass and defend more (see previous post above).

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PLAYOFFS

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game]85-93' Jordan[/url]........ 35/7/7.... (6.6 apg)
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game]06-14' Lebron[/url]....... 28/8/6.... (6.4 apg)

Lebron assisted teammates less than Jordan for the first half of their chips, and wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half (no all-defense in his 30's).

So Jordan scored more, passed more, and defended more to win rings.

Pippen GOAT

Good spot to drag out my favorite old dead horse:

Stockton averaged as many steals per game as Pippen but fewer turnovers.

Not a huge sample but most of what I’ve seen from players from that era indicates that Malone was much more respected than Pippen.

Hakeem not top 13?

MJ's EFG% in the 96 Finals was about the same as Pippen's in those Finals.

But I'm sure MJ was amazing at scoring, while Pippen was terrible.

Dick Bavetta saved him in Game 6 of the ‘98 Finals, or history might be a lot different.

Jordan's true shooting was higher in the 96' Finals then Lebron's in 13' Finals, while averaging 2 more ppg than Lebron and facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

Ultimately, Lebron needed 1st options to play 2nd and 3rd option, while MJ, Curry and Duncan won with career 2nd options and tertiary producers.

Lebron's skillset has weak chemistry, so he became a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy) and therefore needed another dominator alongside him.. Otoh, the skillsets of Curry, Duncan and Jordan produced better chemistry, so they could win with non-dominant teammates and secondary producers.. They could win with career 2nd options, while Lebron needed dominant 1st options and franchise players.

It's a pretty clear distinction

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MJ would still be the best today:

MJ had tons of these

Maybe if MJ was born in 2000

If he played today like he did in the 90s.... LOL

For the record, according to you, this wouldn't work today:

Somehow the greatest 2-point shooter ever wouldn't work in today's game even though 3-point beginners and bricklayers like Giannis and Westbrook won MVP... Their success as bricklayers confirms that Jordan's floor in today's game is being much better than peak Giannis or Westbrook (since he's an infinitely better 2-point scorer than they are).

Secondly, in 1990, Jordan shot 38% on 3 attempts... What's wrong with that?.. Then he did it again in 93' - you might think this is nothing but that's significant volume for that time period... i.e. Bird is considered a goat shooter even though he shot 35.2% on 2.1 attempts in the 80-88' Playoffs, which is exactly the same as Jordan in the 85-93' Playoffs.. Jordan's goat scoring simply blinded everyone from the great shooter that he was and the range that he had... Ultimately, by the late 80's, Jordan was a better overall JUMPSHOOTER than 99.5% of today's players.

Infact, Jordan always shot well at today's volumes (3+ attempts).. There are no seasons or series of him shooting poorly at 3+ attempts (regular line), while Lebron has many seasons and series of shooting poorly at 3+ attempts.

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Lebron is destroying an All-NBA player and destroying Austin Reaves' career:

Look how Lebron DEMOLISHES Reaves' assists!!!.. Again, Lebron's ball-dominant skillset of imposing spot-up roles craters teammates' assists and creates low assist teams over time.

Shai is shooting 38% on 4.5 attempts this year, so Jordan would easily do that, since he already did 38% on 3 attempts in 1990 as an experimentor of the shot - it was his first time over 1.5 attempts (bailout volume)

Jordan would be a stronger version of Shai with big man hands, vastly superior mid-range ability, and vastly superior speed and power.. A super-man, alien-rich version of Shai... (keep in mind that Grant Hill or Penny were more explosive than Shai)..

It's also accurate to look at Jordan as a far quicker and explosive Kawhi, with far more tricks in the bag.. Jordan already won the 93' title with 39% on 4 attempts in the playoffs, which is better than 19' Kawhi or 25' Shai.. Carry on

Secondly, the MVP success of Giannis and Westbrook as bricklayers and 3-pt beginners confirms that Jordan's floor in today's game is performing at a much higher level than peak Giannis or Westbrook (since he's an infinitely better 2-point scorer than they are).

FG shows highlights of MJ and the first ones a carry and the second one is an offensive foul.

And that's MJ's highlights.

Only succeeding by cheating a system set up for him to succeed.

MJ got a more favorable whistle than current SGA, meanwhile LeBron doesn't get enough fouls called on him --- because he's so strong and can take the contact.

Actually, if you look at the first play (dunk over Ewing) from the baseline angle, you can see that he does some weird footwork - Kyrie, Curry and a few others use the move, but obviously no one that could finish like MJ

And according to the top players in today's game like Jokic, Giannis and Luka, today's game is optimized for ballhandlers via rules like empty paint/defensive 3 and automatic penetration/no hand-check

At least you didn't dispute that it was a carry and an offensive foul.

I guess that's growth.

Neither were violations. You just don't know basketball

Jordan didn't travel, carry, stiff-arm, or airball FT's like Lebron.. His standard was so much higher (the GOAT standard)..

Jordan also didn't lose with homecourt, 1 or 2 seeds, preseason favorites or Finals teams, while Lebron has a losing lottery record in all these instances (the GOAT loser).

Lebron also has thousands more missed shots and turnovers than anyone on history.. He's literally the "clown" of basketball that teamed up with opponents and then lost by record amount or goat choke.... multiple times... lol... True story.. You can't make this stuff up, smh

Jordan didn't travel, carry, stiff-arm, flop, or airball FT's like Lebron.. His standard was so much higher (the GOAT standard)..

Jordan also didn't lose with homecourt, 1 or 2 seeds, preseason favorites or Finals teams, while Lebron has a losing record in all these instances (the GOAT loser).

Lebron also has thousands more missed shots and turnovers than anyone on history.. He's literally the "clown" of basketball that teamed up with opponents and then lost by record amount or goat choke.... multiple times... lol... True story.. You can't make this stuff up, smh

I know, I know. It was silly of me to think you had personal growth.

BTW that Jordan dunk on the Knicks was my favourite ever Jordan play. Back when I had MJ posters on my wall.

Even back then I admitted to friends it was a carry.

Of course I have some logical concept of reality.