GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

In those finals Jordan took 33 fga's per game. You better score 41 per game if you're doing that.

It's statistical fact that Pippen is the most carried 2nd option ever, so he should never have sniffed MVP votes in any season that Jordan played

Btw, when Windhorst sounds like fallguy, it means fallguy must've won

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1991-1993 Regular Season PPG

Jordan....... 31.4
Pippen...... 19.1
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GAP......... .11.3


Drexler..... 22.4
Porter....... 17.8
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GAP........... 4.6

^^^^ Since Pippen is clearly the most carried player of the group, the proper MVP voting for the 4 players above is 1) Jordan 2) Drexler 3) Porter 4) Pippen,.

I'm not debating whether Porter is better than Pippen, but simply showing how Pippen's MVP voting is drastically unjustified and inflated above others by the winning spotlight.

Ultimately, the most carried 2nd option ever should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played - this is intuitive, logical, statistical fact, and obvious..

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than Jordan and Pippen.. Furthermore, everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES of their careers.. It's simply impossible for the 2nd option to deserve MVP votes in this lopsided situation.

Aside from media awards like the debunked MVP voting shown in the previous post, there's no case for Pippen in the top 10.

As a transition player that struggled against tight halfcourt sets, Pippen's caliber never merited top 10... He was never viewed as better than Isiah Thomas for instance - this matters because Stockton was considered better than Isiah in the late 80's and 90's.. Stockton and Payton had advantages over Pippen in everything, including career stats, All-NBA, All-defense, production rate (PER, etc), clutch, toughness and leadership..

Furthermore, since they were all-time ball-dominators, Stockton and Payton's floor-raising dwarfs Pippen's.. Ultimately, no one thought Pippen was as good as Penny, Hill, Stockton, Payton, Alonzo, Ewing, Drexler, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, and Jordan.. That's 13 guys, while Dominique, Mullin, Kemp and others were also considered better at various times in the 90's... Finally, in today's game, elite shooters like Sean Elliott, Schrempf, Glen Robinson, Mashburn and Rice are easily better, while also outplaying him in the playoffs or other times.

This is a true assessment of Pippen relative to peers...

^^^^ You made my point - that's nothing compared to contenders in the 90's, or even middling teams

You just don't know the history.

Look how loaded the opponents were compared to the drivel that you listed... Lol... It's a JOKE

We already know that Phil thought the triangle would "spread the wealth" and relieve MJ's burden so that he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore.. Lol.... It turns out that Phil knew nothing, since MJ was scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle, while his shot attempts, scoring rate and usage increased in the triangle..

Jordan averaged 33.6 in the Finals, which includes series of 41 and 36 ppg.. He averaged 10-30 more than all teammates in every series, which is the biggest burden ever, BY FAR.

Given that Pippen shot 46.9% true shooting in the 93' Finals and therefore he couldn't handle additional load, and given that the Bulls and Suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, we can conclude that all of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed.

This matters because if a team needs 41 ppg from the 1st option, then they're a 1-man team and garbage cast.of bums.. This is intuitive.. .

Pippen actually shot 0% on threes in that series... It's a statistical fact that he's the most carried 2nd option ever, which means that he should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played..

Every other notable sidekick in the 90's took over the 1st option role in a series and achieved dominant stats that led their team to the conference finals or Finals, except Pippen.. He's the only sidekick that was mostly a dunker that couldn't dominate, and the only "system player" that couldn't crack 15 ppg outside the system.

Your ability to jump from the media being relevant and not relevant is amazing.

FG, is your real name Riley?

Pippen averaged 21/9/8/2/1 in the 93 NBA Finals. Stop lying that he wasn't good. He was the third best player in that series.

It means that the media has caught up to me and know that Lebron is a cancer

46.9 true shooting means that 21 ppg was his peak load.. lol

Other teams knew this.. They knew that Pippen was mostly a dunker and system player with low peak, so he didn't require game-planning.. Shaq said that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report, which forced MJ to face max defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Ultimately, it's a statistical fact that Pippen is the most carried 2nd option ever, which means that he should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played..

Btw, Pippen was 4th in gamescore for the series - his aforementioned 47% true shooting doomed him against the high efficiency Majerle... Meanwhile, rookie and 4th option Richard Dumas averaged 16 on 57% against Pippen, and personally won Game 5.. Pippen was overrated on both ends, since his low efficiency on offense is coupled with every SF getting theirs on Pippen's defense

Okay. Let's use Game Score (for some reason).

The Bulls had the 1st, 4th, 5th and 7th best player in the series. Hardly carried.

BJ Armstrong outplayed Kevin Johnston.

MJ relied on his team mates so much.

If BJ doesn't outplay a guy that made 5 All NBA Teams between 89 and 94 they lose the series.

Was that dumb enough for you?

Now you know how dumb you sound when you talk about Kyrie and Steph.

fiddy i love you man

Scoring is the "star" category that correlates more closely with salary than any other category.

Essentially, points are harder to replace than role player categories like passing, rebounding, and defense.. PPG is also the only category that correlates directly to the scoreboard, aka teams frequently win with less rebounds or assists, but they never win with less points..

Accordingly, ppg and efficiency are the primary drivers that determine whether a star outplayed another star, while role player categories and gamescore mean less.or nothing at all.. The only reason that I brought up gamescore was to show that Pippen frequently gets beat in stats that favor him, in addition to ppg & efficiency..

Again, PPG and efficiency are the reasons why everyone says Kyrie destroyed MVP Curry, or AD destroyed MVP Jokic, or Wade destroyed MVP Dirk..

btw, it's literally the most help ever to have multiple 2nd options outplay MVP's... lebron needs the most help ever because his skillset of imposing spot-up roles produces the worst chemistry and fits ever.

1993 Finals

Suns cast..... 82 ppg
Bulls cast..... 66.ppg

^^^ that's why MJ had to average 41 - the Suns' 4th and 5th options were Dumas and Chambers, who were both better scorers than Pippen, aka the Suns were stacked to the brim and far more talented than the Bulls - this was common knowledge.. Barkley was CERTAIN that the Suns would win that series.. However, the Blazers were even more stacked and the most stacked team Jordan faced in the Finals.

I noticed that you didn't respond to the main part::

46.9 true shooting means that 21 ppg was Pippen's peak load.. lol

Other teams knew this.. They knew that Pippen was mostly a dunker and system player with low peak, so he didn't require game-planning.. Shaq said that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report, which forced MJ to face max defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Ultimately, it's a statistical fact that Pippen is the most carried 2nd option ever, which means that he should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played..

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PLAYOFFS

85-93' Jordan........ 35/7/7.... (6.6 apg)
06-14' Lebron....... 28/8/6.... (6.4 apg)

Lebron assisted teammates less than Jordan for the first half of their chips, and wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half (no all-defense in his 30's).

So Jordan scored more, passed more and defended more to win rings.

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* The NBA defines "clutch-time" as last 5 within 5

* Minimum of 5 playoff games to qualify

1997 PLAYOFFS Clutch-time PPG (total pts...

1. Jordan.......... 5.0 (55)
2. Stockton....... 4.0 (36)

23. Pippen........ 1.6 (18)


1997 FINALS Clutch-time PPG (total pts)

1. Jordan.......... 5.8 (25)
2. Stockton....... 3.3 (13)

6. Pippen.......... 1.0 (4)


1998 PLAYOFFS Clutch-time PPG (total pts...

1. Jordan.......... 5.4 (76)

11. Stockton..... 2.3 (28)

22. Pippen........ 1.7 (24)


1998 FINALS Clutch-time PPG (total pts)

1. Jordan.......... 6.0 (30)

4. Stockton....... 2.0 (10)

8. Pippen........... 1.6 (8)

Furthermore, in the 98' Semis, Pippen had zero points in clutch-time, just like Lebron in 2011 Finals!!... (98' Semis data.... 11' Finals data)

Indeed, Jordan won 6 chips with 2011 Finals Lebron (18/7/6 and frightened in the clutch) - that's Pippen.. Prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with that **** but MJ went 6/6 with it

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The consensus on Pippen by his peers:

Colin Cowherd on Pippen - skip to 5:21 mark:

Isiah saying the Bulls are a 1-man team during the 93' Finals:

When you're talking about this Bulls' team, you're really only talking about Michael Jordan.. So you can speculate about what would happen if you took me off the Pistons and him off the Bulls - yeah, our casts are better - but the fact is, he isn't being taken off the team - he's still there and no one has figured out how to beat this guy"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOV...

Magic saying the Bulls are a 1-man team during 1993 Finals:

"Bulls rely on Michael too much, so if you take me away and you take Michael away from the Bulls, then our team would demolish his team."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOV...

Shaq and Reggie Miller saying the Bulls were a 1-man team:

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The stats below confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem........ 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'............ 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP.......................... 11.0.............3.5............... 1.2............ 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan'........... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP.......................... 13.2............ 9.6............... 2.1............. 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk'................ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry............... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................... 4.9...............1.1.............. 0.5.............. 0.031........... 10.2

92' Jordan''........... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen............ 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP............................ 7.1............. 3.3.............. 0.8.............. 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan'............ 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen............ 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP.......................... 10.0............. 8.1.............. 1.4............... 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan'............ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen............ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP............................. 7.3............. 2.9.............. 0.6.............. 0.122........... 13.8

97' Jordan'............. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen............. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP............................. 9.1............. 4.8.............. 1.0.............. 0.090.......,... 11.9

98' Jordan'............. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen............. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP............................. 8.7............. 3.4............... 0.8.............. 0.095.......... 16.4

Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:

Accordingly the statistical record confirms that Pippen's burden or production rates weren't all-time caliber, and therefore his performance was inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade

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High-scoring ball-dominators leave teammates in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates:

....................................................... ASSISTED RATE

wade BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):........... 29.2%
wade WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'.......... 40.3%

irving BEFORE lebron (12'-14'):.......... 31.9%
irving WITH.... lebron.. (15-17'):......... 32.7%

bosh BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):............ 55.8%
bosh WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'........... 71.6%

love BEFORE lebron (09'-14'):.............. 62.7%
love WITH.... lebron (15'-18'):.............. 78.3%

mo BEFORE lebron (05'-08'):............... 39.2%
mo WITH.... lebron (09'-10'):............... 47.6%

THESE SPOT-UP ROLES LOWER TEAMMATES' ASSISTS

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3 (with Lebron)
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6 (with Lebron)
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3

11-14' Love................ 3.0
15-18' Love................ 2.1 (with Lebron)
19-21' Love................ 2.8

05-08' Mo................... 5.7
09-10' Mo................... 4.6 (with Lebron)
11-13' Mo................... 5.3

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6 (with Lebron)

99-04' Snow................ 6.9
06-07' Snow................ 4.1 (with Lebron)

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3 (with Lebron)

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0 (with Lebron)
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5 (with Lebron)
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8

2018 Ball..................... 7.2
2019 Ball..................... 5.4 (with Lebron)
20-22' Ball................... 6.1

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8
2010 Jamison............. 1.3 (with Lebron)
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9

04-10' Wade............... 6.6
11-14' Wade............... 4.7 (with Lebron)

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2 (with Lebron)

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5
2022 Westbrook..........7.1 (with Lebron)

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0
19-21' KCP................... 1.6 (with Lebron)
22-25' KCP................... 2.2

By lowering teammates' assists, high-scoring ball-dominators produce low-assist teams.

Specifically, players that scored a lot of unassisted solo missions, i.e. players that averaged 25+ with under 40% assisted rate in a season occurred 96 times since 1997, and they averaged 18th in assists, while producing a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%).

Otoh, high-scorers that played more off-ball and were assisted by teammates more often produced higher assist teams.. Specifically, players that averaged 25+ with over 50% assisted rate occurred 87 times, and they averaged 10th in team assists, while producing a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).

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Nearly every good player saw their PPG crater alongside Lebron:


2025 AD..................... 30
2025 AD..................... 25 (with Lebron)

2025 Reaves............. 28
2025 Reaves............. 19 (with Lebron)

2025 Luka................. 30
2025 Luka................. 27 (with Lebron)

2010 Bosh................. 24
2011 Bosh................. 18 (with Lebron)

2014 Love.................. 26
2015 Love.................. 16 (with Lebron)

2005 Hughes............. 22
2006 Hughes............. 15 (with Lebron)

2010 Jamison............. 22
2010 Jamison............. 16 (with Lebron)

2021 Westbrook........ 22
2022 Westbrook........ 18 (with Lebron)

2019 Ingram.............. 18 (with Lebron)
2020 Ingram.............. 24

2021 Drummond...... 18
2021 Drummond...... 12 (with Lebron)

2024 Dinwiddie......... 13
2024 Dinwiddie........... 7 (with Lebron)


Sources:

Lakers stats with Lebron this season: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lakers-...

Lakers stats w/out Lebron this season: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lakers-...

^^^ Lebron's ball-domination cratered his teammates' PPG and APG, while teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ by averaging more PPG and APG alongside him (Pippen, Woolridge, Grant, BJ, Vincent, Oakley, Paxson, Kerr, Longley, etc)..

So it's night and day how Lebron's ball-domination craters teammates, while Jordan's off-ball game elevated teammates, so his teams played to capacity.

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.