1/3 ~ straight vs female player

Curious as to what the rake is?

I'm fine with preflop.

I'm fine with flop.

Gotta admit my initial take on the turn was to just fold unless we had bad intentions on lots of rivers. Then realized we're getting 7-to-1 in position with overs + gutty. Sigh, ok I guess? Although I'm also assuming we're sometimes drawing dead even to this sizing?

Yeah, funny river spot. I mean, obviously this is never a bluff. The question is whether it is overvalue enough of the time? J9, but preflop tho? Chopping T9, but again preflop? 75? A couple A9s combos and so on? I think all overpairs should always be considered in play in spite of preflop, but this is really the river AA/etc. was waiting for? In the end, I think we can make super exploitable folds against this player type so long as we're convinced they don't think AA is an excellent hand here.

GcluelessNLnoobG

It's atrocious. Higher than what you said last time.

Unless it's a home game, I didn't realize any U.S. LLSNL games had rakes approaching my $9 + $1 + $1 here (which isn't even the worst in this country).

GcluelessrakeriddlednoobG

So assuming reads are correct:

1. She doesn't have T9/98/97/88/66 due to turn bet being weak.

2. She doesn't have JT due to turn bet from passive player.

3. She probably thinks any T is the nuts, and maybe any 5. And 77.

...I'd probably sigh call river and hope she's lost the plot somewhere, or we are chopping.

Given you opened the BTN, I think you can/should bet flop (realize you are likely to be mixing here with this hand, but eh). Would check KT/QT.

Also think in a vacuum, and against this player, that it's much better to raise turn than call because you are way behind like 65/55 or even Q8.

Seems at best you are chopping. If you knew her $10 bet was weak, why not raise her? Do you have a range for what she considers weak?

Raise turn! I dunno now. Its a chop at best.

Grunch:

PRE - Raise bigger. They're not limping in to fold to a $20 raise. Push the players behind us out so we get to act last post flop. She's passive and he's a whale in the BB. She's not 3B'ing anywhere near enough. He's defending way too wide. Make it $25, at least. I might make it $30 and say something stupid, like "Hodor" as I toss my chips in.

FLOP - Why are you checking back? Is it something theory-based, like this board favors their range more than ours?

So what? She's passive. She's not going to punish us for range-betting. What non-nutted hands is she check-raising here?

His aggression is random. If he had a hand, he might donk. If he x/r's for a huge size, so be it. Fold and move on. If he x/r's some stupid-small size, call and steal the pot away when he checks turn, or fold when we don't improve and he barrels for a huge size, or call another small bet and take the pot from him on the river.

We have position. Just c-bet 1/3 pot. They're not playing back at us enough to fear getting x/r'd.

TURN - If she has a sizing tell, and you think she's capped, why aren't you raising? Make it $50 or $60. Take it down now, or make more money when she calls turn and you take it on the river. Why are you letting her set her own price to see the river with this dink-and-dunk bet size? Make her pay.

Understand - if she folds, it's fine. We have ace-high. If she calls, it's fine. We have two overs and a gutter, and a range advantage. It's enough to work with, and a turn raise generates some additional fold equity if we need to bomb the river.

RIVER - Uhm...6, 7, 8, 9...you do realize you made a straight here, yes? Why do we only beat bluffs? Does she never over-value a worse hand?

We gave her rope. We checked back the flop. We only flat called a $10 turn bet. You don't think she's capable of betting $50 into $80 with trip 9's, or 8x, or 65?

It's definitely not a snap fold. Closer to a snap call. Not sure I'd ever fold here. I probably wouldn't raise, but I'd at least think about it.

If she has a boat, tap the table, tell her nice hand, and move on.

Very interesting and enlightening perspective.
Preflop, going to 25 feels sketchy w/ATo, whales are sticky, if we don't hit, what's our plan???
I thought checking flop was normal vs whale+BB who's range hit this flop harder than us.
Turn I thought calling was normal vs a passive opponent bets. Never thought about raising in game. Many others here also said raising was best. Very eye opening.
When I reviewed this hand myself, I thought the only problem was river.

How many times have I told you to stop focusing on your actual hand and start thinking about their range?

Who gives a f**k that we only have ATo? Why does that matter when considering our bet size? Are we sizing up or down based on the relative strength of our hand, or our relative strength as a player?

Hint - it ain't the strength of our hand.

I almost think you'd be better if you played all your hands blind, and just looked at what your opponents were doing. You'd be better off not knowing your hole cards, if all your decisions are based on them.

What's our plan when we don't hit? Simple. We do the exact same thing we'd do when we do hit, or when we didn't need to because we had AA. You seem at least somewhat familiar with the concept of range-betting, but don't seem to understand its application.

This. This exact spot. This is the application.

Say we c-bet, and one of them raises. Okay. And....what? We fold? Okay. So what? We have two overs and a gutter. We were bluffing, we got raised, and we had to fold. Boo-hoo.

What if we check back the flop, and one of them leads out on a brick? Now what? Fold? Call? Raise? What's your plan when you check back the flop? What if they bet small? Bet big?

Are you going to let them guide you where they want you to go, or are you going to guide them where you want them to go?

What if we check back the flop, and make our hand on the turn? Awesome. Now there's 4 to a straight on board and we missed a street of value. Are they going to call a huge delayed c-bet with 2P? Or were you going to dink-and-dunk with a small bet size? Or over-bet and pray they think you're bluffing?

What if we c-bet, and they both fold? We win with ace-high. What if we c-bet, one or both call, and the turn is a brick? We check it back when they check to us, and hope to make our hand on the river, or we barrel, because what are they going to do about it? Raise? Okay, then we fold.

What if we c-bet, one or both call, and we make our hand on the turn? Won't we be happy we made sure some money went in on the flop, before an action-killing card came out? Now we can bet small again, to force them to call off with hands that are drawing dead, or close to it.

Why are you so afraid of c-betting here, but you're not afraid to run some wild zero-equity bluff or raise pre with a pair of napkins? What's the absolute worst thing that can possibly happen if we c-bet for $20? We get raised, and have to lose $20 when we fold?

Are you playing Poker, or Bingo?

I literally could not give fewer f**ks about what many people here say. If I could identify the smartest, most bestest player on the forum, I'd ignore everyone else and just pay attention to what that one person says. If everyone else disagrees, everyone else would be...there's no other way to put this...wrong. Many people here are trying recs who regurgitate garbage they picked up from other trying recs.

Stop letting other people do your thinking for you. Especially the crowd. The crowd generally reverts to the mean, which is to say, in the aggregate it trends toward being average, not excellent.

If a dozen people here call me stupid, I don't care. I don't care about looking stupid at the table, where my opponents can actually see my face. I don't play to earn anyone's respect. I play for money. As long as I get to keep their money, they can withhold their respect.

If V over-bet the turn, I'd snap fold. When V bets $10 into $60, I don't think I'd be able to sleep that night if I didn't raise. If we raise to $50 or $60, and she 3B's, it's the easiest fold in the world. I chuckle to myself, and move onto the next hand.

Good for her, she got $50 out of me by inducing me to raise. I'll get $500 out of her by repeatedly taking her to value-town when I have it, and making her wilt under relentless pressure when I don't. It's only a matter of time.

Once again, what range are you giving her on the turn when she limps pre, over-calls our raise, checks flop, and then leads out for a measly $10 into a $60 pot, when there's three to a straight out there and the top card pairs? Is this the size she'd take with a super-strong hand, on this board?

I think a strong woman player has a huge advantage in this game. I certainly over-respect and can be bluffed. If the flush comes in I might not give a guy credit, but if she bets, I’m gone.

So your play is reasonable to me
You tried to bluff a weak hand from the button, ran into a real hand and folded - makes sense

Fortunately, most women (as well as all players in general) are not good players. The way to beat them in my view is to catch them overvaluing a big hand that you beat. You can’t force that to happen, but should recognize that situation. You river a boat and the flush comes in for her, you can likely take the stack.

Again, I probably give a woman too much credit and fold, because I honestly can’t read them very well. If you are a woman, I suggest you never show a bluff, because we always think you’ve got it.

I will say that I really don’t understand opening and then checking the flop. If you’re not going to continue the story that you’re strong, I would fold pre-flop - it’s not a very good hand.

Most players don’t understand how to read the board - they’re not saying, o this hit my calling range. All they know is they missed and you bet, so they often fit or fold.

If I was still analyzing her play, I might call here to see since it’s not much money and we could chop. Would be something if she showed up with 55 and the idiot end of the straight.

I have zero issues with calling the turn. The river card and her action are typically going to give us a bunch of information that we don't currently have that will allow us to decide (in position no less) when we have a great bluffing spot versus a terrible one.

Git'shardlyaterribleplan,imoG

I never show my bluffs for this very reason.

Ah, the beauty of being a female poker player 😉 However, you had the read wrong on this one for sure. That's my problem -- my weekly game is full of regs and they all know I'm not passive or tight. I can rarely get away with bluffing, etc., anymore :(

Jumping Jehosaphat.

Some day you have to explain to me why you raise into strength as a bluff but fold value facing weakness.

Your line induced. Her line is weak AF, and is usually going to be super thin value or a bluff when she bets 1/2 pot on the river. The fact that she actually had a real hand only solidifies that you shouldn't be afraid of her.

We could have raised all in. No way she folds for another $170 when we play it this way.

I thought I did.
That 99 hand I was repping sets/2p like your HH when Villain actually had them. To me, I thought ppl would give credit to such line.
This hand here, I thought I folded when I was facing "massive" strength. I thought I was chopping at the very best.

I don't understand why we interpret V's actions as an indication of massive strength.

You have a lot of information available to you. But you're not maximizing its value.

She's sitting with less than the table maximum in front of her. That's typically a sign of a weak player. Strong players want as much money as possible on the table. Weak players tend to play more face up. If she has a strong hand, we'll know it by her actions.

Case in point, you said she only 3B's and opens premiums. And....? Are you telling me she doesn't have any bet sizing tells? Even if she doesn't (and I would bet she does), she has an extremely reliable tell - she only raises with very strong hands!

You said she's uber-passive, whatever that means. I gather you made that determination after some observation. For instance, in this hand, she defended her BB, but she's not closing the action, with the whale limping in from MP. That's pretty fishy. She should be playing 3B or fold here.

If we know she raises premiums, can we confidently rule out JJ+? I think we likely can. Can we at least rule out QQ+?

She's uber-passive, but is she loose, or tight? Is she defending her BB with ATC, or is she mostly folding? Is she likely to show up with T7 or 75 here? What about 98? 86? Can we start discounting that she's going to have a straight, and probably doesn't have 2P?

How do we think she'd play the flop if she actually had 2P+? Would she NEVER donk out here, on a fairly connected, middling board? Wouldn't she be worried the flop would check through and one of her opponents will suck out on the turn?

Once we check back the flop, if she flopped a strong hand, or improved on the turn, is this the size she would bet? I'm guessing you'll say it is, but remember, she's a weak, fishy player. They play face up. She only raises premiums pre. She doesn't play deceptively.

Even if she's never heard of a probe bet, A LOT of players will just start stabbing on the turn when the PFR checks back flop. She may not do it with total air, but if she has a weak value hand or a bluff, we can expect her to put those hands into her small probe bet range, and put her strong hands into her big probe bet range.

Her turn bet is just so rarely a strong hand when she bets $10 into $60 after the flop checks through. Her strong hands want to get value. Is she hoping to induce a raise? On the turn? After the flopped checked through? I'd be shocked, and question our read.

So we know she doesn't have a strong hand on the turn. But, she bet, and we called. If she did have a strong hand, like a boat, she might size up on the river when the straight draw gets there. If she made a straight, she might size up to target 9x or over-pairs.

We have a T in our hand. Are we afraid of her showing up with JT? When she stabs the turn? She's stabbing the turn with just two overs and a gut-shot, and when she drills a four-outer, she only bets 1/2 pot? With the nuts? Seriously?

She's been waiting all day to make a big hand. Her anxiety from bluffing the turn into two opponents must have been through the roof. And when she catches a miracle river card to make the nuts, she only bets $50 into $80, when our stack is twice the size of hers, and she's been watching us drag in enormous pots?

The only reason I probably wouldn't raise is because there aren't many hands she can have that will call, and there's a sliver of a chance she does somehow show up with a boat or JT. She might actually fold the bottom end of the straight.

After this showdown, I'd be raising her super-thin with small raises and bluffing her out of her shoes with big raises whenever I see her betting for a small size.

I honestly wouldn't beat myself up over this hand at all. Unless we have some major reads that she can hurp durp with "i haZ tWo PeaRs" on this runout, we most likely just unfortunatley ran into the only hand we beat. And we can't necessarily just bluff this turn with impunity cuz small bets with nuttish hands on the turn is kinda par for the course @ LLSNL.

Gsometimeswefoldthebesthand,that'spartofpokerG

Eh, even if 55 is the only hand you beat, that's 6 combos. and she only has 3 combos. of 77 (the only realistic hand that beats you). If she has/bets any 65/85/54 and values those 5x hands the same on the river it just gets even more lopsided to at least calling river.

I probably never value shove river with a T, but if she calls with anything she bets then that's also printing ... you just look like an idiot the times she has 77.

True
Once we get to know you well, you just become one of the guys, no offense intended.

Still, if you get that look in your eye and jam your stack, nobody is calling.

I like your style dango
You have an aggressive attitude, but you trust your reads. Villain’s play makes perfect sense with 55, but it would be hard to expect that hand from the action.

Easier said than done, but you just have to laugh at situations like this. Your thought process was mostly good (but please bet the flop) and you didn’t lose much.

Though I’m basically scared of a woman that goes all-in, they will often fold pretty good hands to early aggression. If you pot the flop, she folds those fives.

Against any player, I like aggression on the first two streets, if I’m playing a hand. No mixed signals, I’m driving it. I don’t mind the ‘redline’

You really can’t range well on those early streets. If villain is still with me on the turn, now I should be able to narrow the range for my next decision.

I know how terrible it feels to fold the winning hand, but you have to become really good at not letting it bother you.