GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Brown may not have been an active coach when he said that, but he was a head coach in 87 when Pippen started his career, and won Coach of the Year in 2004 when Pippen was still in the league. He also won Coach of the year in 1978. He's in the hall of fame. He's not just some random commentator, clearly he knew far more about basketball than you.Also, Barkley, Rodman, and IT
Show me where Barkley and Malone said that Pippen was better than them.
You guys are delusional or lying - no one thought pippen was anywhere near barkley, malone, shaq, hakeem, robinson, MJ, or Drexler.
You guys are citing quotes from 30 years after the fact from guys that seek relevancy.. They won't get attention or airtime unless they say something like that, but it's BS or outright trolling... It's no different than saying Klay is on Jokic or SGA's level.
Ultimately, more people sh*tted on Pippen and said he wasn't a factor... He was simply carried to 6 chips, so the winning spotlight inflates him in the media's eyes, and also among players seeking relevancy 30 years after the fact
Lol they were a 1 man team yet somehow without that 1 man Pippen was gifted a fully-developed organizational dynasty. (And then done CRATERED it.)
No contradiction there.
41 ppg = 1 man team
The Bulls and Suns BOTH averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg in the 93' Finals, so all of Jordan's 41 was needed.... And Pippen couldn't handle additional load because he only shot 46.9 true shooting for the series.
Any team that needs 41 ppg to win = 1 man team.
That's why the Bulls cratered to barely .500 in 1995 after opponents woke up and started taking them seriously.. Penny said that the Bulls were the letdown game all year in 94', and teams used that game to party all night because "Black Jesus" wasn't there anymore
It's such a flawed 90s outlook: A team's leading scorer equals max contract FRANCHISE PLAYER. (Regardless whether that leading scorer ever actually contributed to a winning record.)
Then when those guys go to a new team (and are now lower in the pecking order) the new team's leading scorer CRATERED them.
Historically, there have been tons of 20 ppg third options..
Heck, Antawn Jamison averaged 20 as 3rd option for the Wizards, but then he only averaged 15 alongside Lebron.. This is just like Love Bosh, or Westbrook.
Lebron also craters Reaves, but Reaves can still get 20+ because he's 2nd option (not 3rd) and Lebron isn't the 1st option or big factor anymore.
So you're just making excuses for Lebron cratering guys to below 20 ppg and often barely 15 ppg... In addition to cratering their ppg, Lebron also craters their APG, thereby producing low assist teams
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BILL LAIMBEER:
"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires. And you can't win championships like that, with only one player."."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsspor...
SHAQ TALKING ABOUT PIPPEN:
"I don't let bums disrespect me..."
"Don't make me pull up the scouting report. You wasn't even a factor on the scouting report. It was all about Mike."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication...
"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"
"yes THE GREAT MICHAEL JORDAN GOT YOU SIX RINGS , but you will always be remembered as MR 2nd FIDDLE."
"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap...
JERRY KRAUSE, BULLS GM:
“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?
Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.
Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/ne...
CHUCK DALY:
"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCd...
CHUCK DALY:
"We knew how dangerous he was and we knew going into the playoffs that we had to do something special.. So we most definitely devised what we called "the Jordan Rules""
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIx...
BILL LAIMBEER:
"The Jordan Rules were to just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhj...
PHIL JACKSON:
"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not time YET."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_N...
This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.
DUMARS AND ISIAH:
"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".
"Dumars and i were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."
"Isiah called me at 3 in the morning and said 'I think i finally figured out a way to stop MJ"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv4...
This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.. The last quote is from assistant coach Brendan Malone, who said that Isiah called at 3 am to talk about stopping MJ.
HORACE GRANT:
"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVW... [/INDENT]
SCOTTIE PIPPEN:"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv4...
This is all going to be rage-bait for FG to say all these guys suck; no recognition of how it completely contradicts his narratives about what everyone knew, what was common knowledge, and what NO ONE WAS SAYING.In short:
Spoiler
There's far more quotes of people saying the Bulls were a 1-man team and all about MJ because this was the consensus, while the quotes you guys provide are unsourced and from guys seeking relevancy 30 years after the fact.
Ultimately, there's never been a duo where 1 guy was carried so much like Pippen was.... Infact, the goat statistical gap between MJ and Pippen shows that it wasn't a "duo" - it was 1 guy carrying everyone else... the fact that Pippen never hit a big shot or dominated further proves that the Bulls were a 1-man team
^^^ Isiah and Magic both saying the Bulls were a 1-man team
This was back in 1993, so these aren't comments that are 30 years after the fact from guys seeking relevancy.
And I'm still waiting for someone to show me where Barkley and Malone said Pippen was just as good or better than them (top 5 player)
Ultimately, you guys are trying to make Pippen as good as Robinson or Hakeem so that he can be considered a top 5 player like Wade, AD or Luka... lol... The desperation is amazing..
Unfortunately, Pippen was mostly a dunker that could barely scrape 20 system points and couldn't crack 15 ppg outside the system.. Unlike Lebron's sidekicks that can outplay MVP's like Dirk, Curry or Jokic, Pippen was never expected to hang with the best players.. He was destroyed by guys like X-Man and Schrempf
41 ppg = 1 man team
The Bulls and Suns BOTH averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg in the 93' Finals, so all of Jordan's 41 was needed.... And Pippen couldn't handle additional load because he only shot 46.9 true shooting for the series.
Any team that needs 41 ppg to win = 1 man team.
This isn't hard.
Ok, granted it's a 1 man team. If you remove that 1 man how the **** is that being gifted a ready-made-dynasty title team to anyone in his absence? It's an obvious contradiction.
You literally have the most cognitive dissonance of anyone I've ever encountered. I don't think you're trolling. I think you really believe two totally opposing things harmoniously.
I'm just trying to get you to confront it.
Okay, point to a couple during that watered-down, slow-ass 90s era.
I asked Claude for you.
This was pretty rare in the 90s NBA. Here are the clearest examples:
1990-91 Portland Trail Blazers
Clyde Drexler (~25 ppg), Terry Porter (~17 ppg) — they actually fell just short of having three 20+ scorers, but were close.
1990-91 and 1991-92 Golden State Warriors — Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway, and Mitch Richmond (before he was traded) all hovered around or above 20 ppg in that run-and-gun system.
1993-94 Seattle SuperSonics — Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton, and Detlef Schrempf were productive but didn't all hit 20+.
The most notable true example from the decade:
1995-96 Orlando Magic — Anfernee Hardaway (~21 ppg) and Shaquille O'Neal (~26 ppg) were the two big scorers, but they didn't have a reliable third at 20+.
Honestly, having three 20+ ppg scorers on the same team was extremely uncommon in the 90s because the pace was slower and teams tended to be more hierarchical in shot distribution. Most elite teams relied on one dominant scorer (Jordan, Shaq, Olajuwon, Barkley) with supporting casts that didn't reach that threshold.
I'd recommend verifying specific season stats on Basketball-Reference.com, as I want to be careful not to misstate exact averages — but the general truth is that three 20+ ppg scorers on one team was essentially unheard of in that era.
Apples (90s basketball [the actual beginner-style format]) is the same as oranges (the modern game where teams have lots of good players) to you.
Like yep, LeBron has played with good teammates; no team can win now as a 1-man team. Prime Jordan def wouldn't be titling on the Kings or the Nets currently, LeBron is a better floor-raiser actually.
I agree that the Bulls weren't actually loaded like everyone said, I made that argument at the time. So to say Pippen failed bc he was given that same team without (a) GOAT (and then didn't even have Horace Grant year 2) and didn't title is literally the most asinine thing ever posted in SE.
Show me where Barkley and Malone said that Pippen was better than them.You guys are delusional or lying - no one thought pippen was anywhere near barkley, malone, shaq, hakeem, robinson, MJ, or Drexler.You guys are citing quotes from 30 years after the fact from guys that seek relevancy.. They won't get attention or airtime unless they say something like that, but it's BS or ou
Pippen was an MVP top ten guy as early as 92, and an all star already in 1990. And he had easily his two best individual seasons when he got the chance to play without Jordan.
You don't need to make up nonsense to argue that Jordan is the GOAT. He made his case better without you.
This isn't hard.Ok, granted it's a 1 man team. If you remove that 1 man how the **** is that being gifted a ready-made-dynasty title team to anyone in his absence? It's an obvious contradiction.You literally have the most cognitive dissonance of anyone I've ever encountered. I don't think you're trolling. I think you really believe two totally opposing things harmoniously.I'
The reason for our disagreement is because you aren't realizing that teams win via talent AND chemistry, not just talent.
Accordingly, when the Bulls lost the goat talent after the 93' season, they still had goat chemistry to help them win, which was developed over time and a 3-peat.
The 94' Bulls certainly had no talent because they didn't even have a 2nd scorer.. Horace was just a rebounder and simple play-finisher/dunker.. But despite this lack of talent, the Bulls survived via chemistry and sleeping opponents - a great mix.
In addition to goat chemistry and sleeping opponents, Pippen was handed a fully-developed organization that had already established an identity, hard-working culture, and championship reputation/aura.
Regardless of these advantages, once opponents woke up in the 94' Playoffs and following season, the Bulls were nothing and MJ had to elevate a borderline .500 team to 3-peat goat team.
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Reggie Miller and Pippen faced the same opponent in the playoffs 6 times:
R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage
R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage
R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage
R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage
R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage
R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage
Pippen's production was a low bar that anyone could match or exceed:
FINALS
95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS
92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS
Many guys outplayed Pippen against the same comp:
1998 Playoffs
Kemp vs Pacers........ 26.0 on 48%
Pippen vs Pacers...... 16.6 on 39%
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CAREER FINALS
Jordan...... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%
CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS
Jordan...... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%
Pippen was an MVP top ten guy as early as 92, and an all star already in 1990. And he had easily his two best individual seasons when he got the chance to play without Jordan.
You don't need to make up nonsense to argue that Jordan is the GOAT. He made his case better without you.
Do you understand that there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than Jordan and Pippen, so why should Pippen sniff any MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played, since he's literally the most carried player of all-time??..
See the stats above - how could Pippen be top 10 in MVP during any season Jordan played???.. It's absurd, and this kind of erroneous group-think permeates the media and invalidates the awards or voting.
The reason that Pippen was still top 10 in MVP voting despite being the most carried player ever is because of the winning spotlight inflation and also the media voted for Jordan/Pippen like a joint ticket - the media was simply too lazy to find a player that actually deserved the vote - it was much easier going with a 3-peat champion.
Accordingly, MVP simply means nothing, especially the actual voting... There's no point in bringing it up.
All-NBA is also a joke because 2nd options need titles to make it, such as Pippen, Klay, Pau, Dumars, Parker, Manu, Worthy, Jalen Williams, and many more... 2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA, and virtually never make it on losing teams.
Ultimately, Gary Payton has more All-NBA and All-Defense, while also being better at scoring, passing and clutch, so why isn't he universally-considered better than Pippen??.. You know the answer to this - the winning spotlight obviously.. Kemp was also superior to Pippen, along with Penny, Hill, Stockton, Alonzo, Ewing, Miller, Drexler, Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, and Jordan... Elite scorers that destroyed Pippen like Chris Mullin, Glenn Robinson, Mashburn and Larry Johnson probably think they're just as good or better than Pippen.. And there's tons more because Pippen was a low producer/low bar..
Apples (90s basketball [the actual beginner-style format]) is the same as oranges (the modern game where teams have lots of good players) to you.
* Hands-off is beginner, while hands-on is advanced.
* Teammates shooting 30 threes per game to keep the paint open for easy drives???.. That's beginner and easier format to score.
* Defensive 3 to clear out the paint for drivers??. That's the easy format according to everyone, while packed paints are the hard format.
^^^ so you can project today's beginner format and pretend previous eras had it too, but common knowledge and BBALL101 proves you wrong.
For Lebron to win as his team's leading scorer, he needed franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (super-team), which is vastly inferior to winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player like Curry, Duncan and Jordan.
Furthermore, when Curry, Duncan, and Jordan got "help", they produced dominant records, perennial favorites and dynasties, while Lebron barely won 50 games with the preseason favorite, thereby falling to perennial underdog.. He simply produces the weakest teams of any top 15 candidate.
Aside from Jordan and a few one-off exceptions, no era can win as a 1-man team.
Curry actually did in 2015 because Klay was out-produced by 09' Mo or Hornacek...
Infact, a guy like Jordan Poole is a great example of someone that was viewed positively and developed a name when he was a Warrior and basking in the winning spotlight, but now he's a bum that no one cares about on the losing Wizards... Harvey Grant was also like this (Horace's brother)... Pippen would also be like this OUTSIDE of the winning spotlight.
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THREAD CLIFFS
Lebron's destruction of Luka and Reaves are the latest acts of teammate destruction that confirm Lebron's style of play is suboptimal.. Lebron fans should ask themselves "How many more examples of teammate destruction would it take for me to concede that Lebron lacks the IQ and skills to fit with many different player types, and therefore is inferior to guys that fit with everyone like Curry, Kobe and MJ?"
It started with Larry Hughes.. He was the first player that was considered really good that Lebron destroyed by turning him into spot-up shooter... Hughes had come into his own with 2 good seasons alongside Arenas, and he'd developed into a 22/5/5 1st team defender - his stats were better than 1990 or 1993 Pippen, but then Lebron cratered him to rubble by making him stand in the corner for his drive-heavy and ball-dominant attack.
After Lebron demolished Hughes' role and stats, guys like Jamison, Love, and Bosh followed, and then IT and Clarkson... Ingram, Westbrook, Kuzma, Dinwiddie, Wood, Prince and many more.. Too many to name.. Luka and Reaves are the latest victims of having their career reduced.
Ultimately, we know why Lebron craters his teammates PPG and APG.. It's bball 101 that primary ballhandlers score on their own a lot, especially high-scoring primary ballhandlers... Accordingly, they have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing in spot-up roles with more assisted buckets - these spot-up or play-finisher roles crater teammates' assists, thereby producing low assist teams over time that lack the ball movement, chemistry and offensive sophistication of the best basketball (dynasties and dominant title runs).
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1991-1993 Regular Season PPG
Jordan...... 31.4
Pippen..... 19.1
________________
GAP......... .11.3
Drexler.... 22.4
Porter...... 17.8
________________
GAP........... 4.6
^^^^ Accordingly, the proper MVP voting for the 4 players above is 1) Jordan 2) Drexler 3) Porter 4) Pippen, since Pippen is clearly the most carried player of the group.
However, since Pippen gets carried to titles, the winning spotlight inflates him above others in MVP voting... I'm not debating whether Porter is better than Pippen, but simply showing how Pippen's MVP voting is drastically unjustified.. The most carried 2nd option ever should never have sniffed MVP votes in seasons that Jordan played - this is intuitive, logical, statistical fact, and obvious.. Unfortunately, the media was too lazy to find a player that actually deserved the vote - it was much easier to go with a 3-peat champion.
Kellerman fluffing for LeBron or naw?
Lebron is the problem, full stop:
The Lakers would be legit contenders if Lebron had never come back from sciatica, since Luka-Reaves were the best duo in the league and their amazing chemistry was still in it's infancy.
The numbers show that lineups with Luka/Reaves are huge winners without Lebron, and huge losers with him on the court.. So the media simply LIES about Lebron by pretending he's still viable.
Ultimately, every syllable that I've said about Lebron's suboptimal, ball-dominant skillset is correct - he destroys many teammates and Luka-Reaves are the latest examples.. They should sue him because his presence has set back their careers and is WASTING their prime.
Leaving everything else aside, the Lakers definitely should’ve bought out LeBron at the end of December.
Would’ve been best for everyone, and he could’ve signed a vet min with GS NYK or Heat.
Leaving everything else aside, the Lakers definitely should've bought out LeBron at the end of December.
Would've been best for everyone, and he could've signed a vet min with GS NYK or Heat.
Yup.. It's over.... But the Lakers have actually been a trainwreck for each of the last 5 years.. So it's been over for a while now... This year will be no different because the Lakers will either miss the play-in, playoffs, or get swept in the 1st Round.
And I wonder how many guys need to play bad alongside Lebron before people concede that his skillset craters numerous player-types... For example, would Jokic need to crater alongside Lebron?.. Or is Luka, Reaves, Ingram, Wade, Bosh, and Love enough??? And also Hughes, Jamison, IT, Westbrook, Dinwiddie, Wood and many more..
Lebron simply lacks the elite IQ and skills to fit with everyone like Curry, Kobe or MJ did.. Obviously, these guys are great off-ball players with expert jumpshooting skill.
Leaving everything else aside, the Lakers definitely should've bought out LeBron at the end of December.Would've been best for everyone, and he could've signed a vet min with GS NYK or Heat.
Yup.. It's over.... But the Lakers have actually been a trainwreck for each of the last 5 years.. So it's been over for a while now... This year will be no different because the Lakers will
Lebron could literally sign for OKC this summer on a vet min, take over all ballhandling responsibilities and the media would be dumbfounded as to why their defense has now tanked and why Shai is no longer playing at the MVP level that he previously was and why OKC is now fighting just to stay a top 4 seed.
all we heard this summer was how Lebron was going to be some supersized Draymond role player this year and adapt his game to compliment the offensive wizardry of Luka and Reaves. Instead all he's done is tank the Lakers from the #2 seed they occupied before his return down to the play-in game while at the same time refusing to hand over the #2 role to Reaves even though Reaves is averaging 10% higher TS% this year than Lebron. And in typical Lebron fashion it's Luka, Ayton, Pelinka and every other person besides Lebron who is taking the blame for it. He's simply the most excused athlete in the history of sports.
Isiah said that if you take Isiah and MJ off the teams, the Pistons would easily beat the Bulls..
So, what you're saying is that MJ is better than Isiah.
Amazing.
Bulls won 54 games without MJ by the way. So, maybe he's wrong.
Imagine thinking that a team with the best player in the league, plus (at worst) another top 10 player, plus a player that was just an All NBA player/All Defensive Player the season before, a 6th man of the year, one of the greatest shooters of all time coming off the bench, and a top 2 coach of all time, wasn't a loaded team.
Particularly with how poor the talent in the league was at that time.
So, what you're saying is that MJ is better than Isiah.
Amazing.
Bulls won 54 games without MJ by the way. So, maybe he's wrong.
Heading into the 94' season, everyone knew that goat domination was required from Jordan for the Bulls to win, such as 41 ppg in the latest Finals... Accordingly, everyone knew the 55 wins was the flukiest crap ever and that the bubble would burst - everyone knew the Jordannaires were simply "the little engine that could", while the rest of the league looked on in amusement and partied all night before playing them.. No one thought the 55 wins was legit, and this was validated in the playoffs and following season.
