Combo draw with junk hand in limped pot facing maniac flop overbet and call

You need to lead the flop. That's the takeaway here.

Asking us what to do after you've botched the hand and a maniac takes it to an absurd place where bet sizes are 4x pot is not a very productive exercise.

As played, fold. Your draw is weak, your odds are terrible, and the river card is going to be obscenely expensive.

What hand are you worried about specifically?

How? We have a pair. What draws could he hold that have us dead?? We're ahead of any two diamonds and crushing any straight draws.

Again...name some hands you're worried about.

We have all of our flush outs against 2 pair and sets. We have all of our flush outs plus 2 pair and trips outs against HJ's single pair holdings.

If I push and get called 3-ways against a made hand and flush draw, I am close to drawing dead. I am not far ahead of much. Only in trouble HU against a set or A4. AA/QQ are unlikely in a limped pot and there is only one combination of 44.

But if you can push HJ out of the pot. It's printing money vs maniac's range.
If you can't, it's a snap fold.

I don't know if I should post results yet. However, I thought for about 40 seconds. I thought it was push or fold. I didn't think either of them were that strong, so I shoved. UTG moved allin over the top covering everyone and I was not happy. Both the other players tanked for less than a minute and folded. HJ folded AsJh face up.

I was shocked when UTG immediately turned over QQ. I guess he was playing for a 3!, as the maniac was raising large about half the time, and someone else could also raise. I don't know if he could be so passive as to just limp/call QQ. I was about 30%. There was dead money, but it was still very EV-. I hit the flush on the river though.

UTG said if he had raised, I would have folded 42s and he would have gotten a lot from HJ with a set versus TPGK.

It would have been profitable getting HU against HJ with dead money or HU against whatever the maniac folded. It would have been very profitable to get allin if they both had top pair, but bad against AJ and a higher flush draw.

I was thinking I misplayed it when UTG called with QQ, but that was very unexpected.

I looked at it more. It was hard for anyone to have 2-pair or a set. They shouldn't have AA/QQ/AQ in a limped pot. I strongly blocked 44. I blocked A4/Q4, and they may not limp Q4. The maniac is unlikely to limp anything that makes 2-pair or a set, except Q4.

I was a little shocked to see AJo and QQ in a limped pot. However, the UTG limp with QQ is a reasonable approach, as the maniac often raises big, which no one takes seriously, so there could be 2 or 3 calls or a 3!.

I was about $90 EV- against QQ with the dead money. Would have been about $30 EV+ against AJ without the diamond. Usually aces will not have diamonds for their other cards, but about even against and ace with a diamond. I pick up about $120 if everyone folds, which is possible, as HJ is more likely to have limped a weak ace. Gain about $180 allin against two players with aces and lose about the same allin against an ace and a flush draw. Obviously crushed against a set and a flush draw.

So it seems like a big gamble, but slightly EV+ with what I knew, which is what I thought when I shoved.

60 into 14? Into 4 opponents? From someone with some skill? And a call?

I would not recommend jamming 1.5x pot over their 4x pot bet...

I think this thread shows how inelastic even regs are in adjusting to size and number of players in a pot.

A 4x pot bet AND a call and you come to this conclusion? How?

Oh we forgot about utg sitting there. Even reading the reveal I thought there was some typo!

Not sure if you get a good result if utg turned out to have nothing, maniac folded and the player with AJ reasons you can't have much after checking the BB, and only loses to 44.

Ha, funny spot. I think I just quietly fold and don't tell anyone. I just finished posting in a Banana thread how I'd quicky get the money in on the flop with a pair + flush draw. But the biggest difference between that hand and this one is the dead money. There is basically no real dead money in this hand to go after (I guess apart from the $60 he's put in but I'm not sure what our FE is against him?), so we're simply playing for the stacks behind. Our hand also isn't as robust as in the other hand, as here we could often be up against a better draw + overs + potential gutty (which actually has quite a lot of equity against our pair). The risk (our stack) versus the reward (nothing in the pot before his bet) doesn't seem that enticing.

ETA: I totally missed the fact that someone called the monster flop bet, which I think makes this even more of a fold (at the very least could be hogging up dominating outs). I also didn't put in as much stock as I should have with UTG showing up with a flopped monster (which isn't surprising at all in this situation).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I checked the bb and lost my stack before hitting with junk & getting counterfeited.

I think I value calls more than you
They say it takes a better hand to call than bet.
The price is bad, but this call has to be strong, queens don’t surprise me.

I would fold, mainly because of the guy you never saw coming.

I would Never criticize aggression when dealing with a maniac, you have to fight back. You can’t get a much better semi-bluff with 4 high and I like it when we win.

I actually had a pair of 4s, not 4-high on the flop.

Afterwards, when I saw the QQ and the AJ folded face up, I thought I had screwed up. However, I thought I had some FE due to the maniac and reaction to him. Obviously HJ isn't folding AJ to one allin, but I didn't think he limped with something that strong.

Why continue getting poor odds and in a slightly ahead way behind scenario? There are common 3 way scenarios where we are completely screwed. Just fold.

Yeah, that probably would have been better. As I indicated, it was very unlikely either player had a set. It happened the UTG limper had one with QQ. As I mentioned, if they both have an ace for top pair, I am about 50% to win 3-way. If everyone folds, that is also a good result. So it isn't completely always only a slightly EV+ result.

I would have been 51% against AJ with dead money. AJ is not going to fold, but he shouldn't have that good an ace. It is not true that AJ only loses to 44. I was in the BB and could have all combinations of A4 and Q4, so I had sort of a nut advantage, as the limpers would be unlikely to have Q4o, and may have folded Q4s/A4o.

How much FE do you think you have vs 4x pot and call?

The maniac was doing things like that and I wasn't sure it represented huge strength. I thought the caller was loose/passive and wasn't taking the huge bet as necessarily strength either. I agree in retrospect folding would have been better.

And the award for longest, most detailed thread title goes to...

RE, the hand - my immediate gut reaction is that if we call we're never seeing the river if the turn is a brick, and even if we make our flush we can't feel confident it's good, and the better scenario is we turn trips, and we still need to fear someone shows up with a better 4X or calls our obvious donk-jam with a PP thinking we're on a draw and they river a boat. And if we jam, we're getting snapped off by better hands or better draws.

You disappoint me, Deuce. I thought you were more risk averse than this. How are you even thinking of calling, much less shoving? Did you do a juice cleanse or something similar recently?

O. M. F. G.

Hands like this make me want to send people gift baskets the next day (when I'm the one with QQ here).

What's that old saw, "Beware the limper"? "Never go broke in a limped pot"?

You got got.

I think this is an easy fold. Lead flop small is cool.