GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Rachel Nichols?????
It was the legendary Hubie Brown, who absolutely loved talking up Jordan's greatness, who felt that Scottie was the best non center in the league. You could've at least listened to the clip I told you exactly when he said it.
Imagine thinking Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison were on Scotties level.
Since the NBA's best players lost to Nigeria and nearly lost to Serbia and other 1-man teams, how would they beat MJ, Magic and Bird?
They wouldn't.. That's how...Full stop.. Case closed...
If you can't beat Nigeria or do better than a stalemate against Serbia, then MJ, Magic and Bird would destroy you by record amount... Full stop.. 2 + 2 = 4... Cut the crap.. We have the proof.
Today's simpleton screen-roll skillset would get destroyed by the more diverse skillsets, ball movement and chemistry of previous eras...
Furthermore, today's player is a team-hopper that seeks talent over chemistry... Accordingly, today's game is BAD at chemistry and gets destroyed by superior chemistry like the international game or previous eras.
Rachel Nichols?????
It was the legendary Hubie Brown, who absolutely loved talking up Jordan's greatness, who felt that Scottie was the best non center in the league. You could've at least listened to the clip I told you exactly when he said it.
Imagine thinking Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison were on Scotties level.
Similar to Klay, Shawn Marion or Iguodala, the overwhelming consensus is that Pippen couldn't dominate and wasn't a franchise player that could build teams from scratch.. The phrase "he's a Pippen" is the universal nickname for sidekick, underling, lackey, or carried player.
I can pull up quotes that speak to this consensus, so a hyperbolic claim by Rachel Nichols in the middle of a historically-hyped game is a losing argument.. Again, citing quotes from media is dumb.
We can see with our own eyes that every notable 90's sidekick dominated various series and carried their team to the conference finals or Finals, except Pippen... Pippen is the only notable sidekick in the 90's that couldn't dominate and never took over the 1st option role in a series (carried in every series).
Specifically, Terry Porter averaged 26/4/8 with 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the 1990 and 1992 Finals.... KJ, Stockton, Penny or Kemp also dominated to carry teams to the conference finals or Finals.. These guys were "go-to" players that were elite at creating their own shot in the halfcourt, while Pippen was mostly a dunker that couldn't crack 15 ppg outside the system (system player).. Again, he was simply handed a fully-developed organization and dynasty, which he quickly cratered to rubble before MJ returned.
Jordan is 6-6, Carl Lewis 6-2 fwiw.
Pippen is more overrated than LeBron.
However, just for laughs, if someone said Nique was a franchise player who built a perennial contender, that would make Nique the most overrated. But nobody could ever be that high. Carmelo is Larry Bird compared to Nique.
Again, Jordan is closer to a sprinting physique than Lebron, whether we use Bolt as a proxy or shorter guys.
And why do you dispute that Dominique built the Hawks into perennial 50-win team that contended? That's literally what he did, and it culminated in nearly beating the 88' Celtics in a well-regarded, HISTORIC series.
Again, unlike Dominique, Stockton, Payton, Drexler, Rice, and others, Pippen wasn't considered an elite producer or franchise player that built contenders from scratch.. Any team that builds around Pippen will lack capacity to add talent, since any decent scorer might supplant him as 1st option.. This is precisely why guys like Klay, Pippen and Shawn Marion are career sidekicks and not considered franchise players.. The phrase "he's a Pippen" is the universal nickname for sidekick, underling, lackey, or carried player.
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The goat load
1994 2ND ROUND
I agree.
And it isn't particularly close tbh.
Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94' 2nd Round, while Phil Jackson chose Kukoc over Pippen FIVE TIMES for game-winners in the 94' season.. Kukoc hit 5 game-winners off the bench and actually led the Bulls in BPM for the 94' Playoffs.. The point is that a player as ordinary as Kukoc could supplant Pippen as "the guy"... If Kukoc did that, what would Schrempf, Elliott, or Finley do, let alone Larry Johnson, Grant Hill, or Glenn Robinson.. Again, teams that build around sidekicks like Klay or Pippen will lack capacity to add talent, since any Tom, Dick, or Harry can supplant them as "the guy".. This is precisely why sidekicks like Shawn Marion, Klay or Pippen aren't considered "franchise players" that teams build around.
Ultimately, the phrase "he's a Pippen" is the universal nickname for a sidekick, underling, lackey, or carried player.. Pippen was simply lucky to be gifted a fully-developed dynasty in 94', which he cratered to barely .500 before MJ returned in 95'... He was never considered a "franchise player" that was tasked with building a lottery team into contender...
Pippen was never a big enough scorer in the halfcourt to be considered a franchise player - he was mostly a dunker that couldn't crack 15 ppg outside the system.. The proof of this is that he forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) in virtually every series - MJ averaged 10-30 ppg more than Pippen in every series.
Pippen stunk all the time, such as 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, or 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, or 15 on 33% vs Dominique in the 93' Playoffs... X-Man dominated Pippen in the 92' Playoffs... Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for his Finals career, versus 34 on 48% for MJ - this is the biggest gap in history, and this unprecedented load is why MJ had to take a break.
I think so.. And Jimmy Butler... And maybe Pippen.
She perks up here with Pippen at the 1:54 mark when Pippen starts opening up about why he failed in Houston - apparently he couldn't provide the spacing that Hakeem wanted:
Pippen's inability to provide viable spacing is why he couldn't fit with Lebron, similar to Ingram, Hughes, and Westbrook (who Pippen compares himself to, aka their respective failures to provide spacing in Houston).
Furthermore, Pippen's admission that he couldn't provide spacing for bigs like Hakeem confirms that he couldn't win with any other contender in the 90's, since they were led by bigs.. And again, he can't fit with fellow ballhandlers like Lebron, since they need great spacing too.
In case you weren't convinced of Pippen's historic bricklaying, history shows that Pippen's 96' and 98' playoff runs were the worst shooting splits ever among all playoff runs of 15 games and 35 MPG, since 1980 (source here)
Wade was worse at 3's than Pippen.
And that's a big part of the reason for their their weak fit, which lost via goat choke in 2011 and record amount in 2014...
Newsflash: Lebron/Wade/Bosh underachieved...
Specifically, "not 6, not 7" became the shakiest 2 for 4 ever... A win over babies and a teammate bailout were sandwiched between the goat choke and record loss..
As usual, Lebron began each season as the preseason favorite, but then barely won 50 games to fall to underdog.. We know that the fall to underdog is due to weak chemistry, since the talent was initially favored (preseason favorite)..
History shows that when Curry, MJ, Duncan or Kobe got help, they produced perennial favorites, dominant teams and dynasties, while Lebron barely won 50 games with the preseason favorite, thereby falling to perennial underdog...
Ultimately, no one underachieves rosters as much as Lebron.. Infact, Lebron created the underachieving "Bron-ball" or "downhill" skillset that many of today's players use.. It's a big reason why we underperform internationally by barely beating 1-man teams with our 12 All-NBA'ers.
Today's simpleton screen-roll skillset would get destroyed by the more diverse skillsets, ball movement and chemistry of previous eras...
Oh, that probably explains why Karl Malone and John Stockton never succeeded in scoring points and/or getting to the Finals.
Oh, that probably explains why Karl Malone and John Stockton never succeeded in scoring points and/or getting to the Finals.
I left out the word "high" screen rolls... They didn't run high screen rolls, so the paint was still packed and the action was unpredictable and more random.. Since players usually couldn't get all the way to the rim, phenomenal/unstoppable mid-range was required, along with great instinct to make plays in the face of real traffic.
Otoh, today's high screen roll doesn't develop tis great touch or instinct because it simplifies things... It brings all 5 offensive players to the perimeter and empties the paint, so the action is predictable and basic/defeatable - it's beginner basketball... i.e. the ballhandler drives, kicks, and the ball is swung around... Rinse repeat.... Defenses get great at making the simple rotations and shutting down this format..
If you were teaching a beginner, you would show them the high-screen roll format and the basic actions of this setup.. You literally see Melo teaching his young boys the basic high screen roll action in YouTube videos... Kindergarten kids and peewee leagues run this format..
Btw, the Jazz were the only team running a screen-roll offense back then because Stockton/Malone were simply unique in their chemistry and skill.. Otherwise, it was considered too basic and beatable for the rest of the league.. And these were regular screen rolls, not the bastardized, high screen rolls of today's game
Btw, the Jazz were the only team running a screen-roll offense back then because Stockton/Malone were simply unique in their chemistry and skill.. Otherwise, it was considered too basic and beatable for the rest of the league.. And these were regular screen rolls, not the bastardized, high screen rolls of today's game
Nah, it's bc coaches were micomanagers that wanted to run plays and retain control of the game.
Self-importance basically.
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It's always been hard to laud Pippen's offense, so his defense has gotten overrated with time:
35-year old Jordan shut down prime Grant Hill, while Pippen couldn't... Pippen was torched by opposing SF's like Hill, Chris Mullin, X-Man, Schrempf, Larry Johnson, Nance, Johnny Newman, Juwan Howard, Glen Rice, and many more.. Everyone got theirs on Pippen
High screen rolls are effective, while regular screen rolls were never all that effective, except with the magic of Stockton/Malone
Says who?
It's common knowledge that only Stockton/Malone ran the screen roll as an offense because post plays were more successful/efficient - the HIGH screen roll and 3ball format changed this.
It actually bastardized the game into simpleton 3ball with wide open spacing and dumb things like "dunker spot" and "3-level scoring " - this dumbed-down format and verbage allows noobs to understand the game and brings in new fans that otherwise didn't like basketball prior to the game becoming dumbed-down
What 98% of fans don't understand about Jordan's greatness is that he had all-time PASSING ability, but it was made invisible by his goat scoring dominance.
He made hundreds of touch passes, shovel passes, behind-the-back, no-look, defense-tricking passes - he made every pass that an elite point guard makes and with flair, except NO ONE CARED because they were so addicted to his scoring.. It's quite remarkable tbh
In 1989, the 26-year old Jordan started at point guard for the first time in his career, and by his fourth start, he was considered the best PG in the league.. That's goat talent for the game of basketball.
Strange dichotomy of appeals to "it's common knowledge" and "everyone knew" while also undercutting any accolades and/or lauding that disagrees with your core thesis, whether by former players, coaches, or "journalism majors."
It's all very convenient but I guess that's how one rolls when you have such a stranglehold on truth.
Just to be clear, PNR sucks unless it's above the break. BUT ALSO, the high PNR would get destroyed by the more diverse skillsets, ball movement, and chemistry of previous eras.
Now those previous eras weren't able to overly defend the inferiorly run PNR but that's only bc Karl Malone and John Stockton were the singular individuals on the planet with the skills necessary. (Everyone knows that!)
So the 90s PNR sucked, and the triangle sucked, but it was also the golden age of basketball and today is straight beginner-style format. I'm curious what team and system was playing the way you think is so great during this peak era?
Strange dichotomy of appeals to "it's common knowledge" and "everyone knew" while also undercutting any accolades and/or lauding that disagrees with your core thesis, whether by former players, coaches, or "journalism majors."
It's all very convenient but I guess that's how one rolls when you have such a stranglehold on truth.
You guys only cite journalism majors when it comes to Pippen - All-NBA or All-Defense is your biggest argument, and without that, what would you have???.. You would have nothing because Pippen never actually played above a prime Iguodala or Shawn Marion level.. The winning spotlight simply inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
For perspective, consider that Majerle, Starks, Dominique and other guys said "if MJ didn't want you to score, you didn't score", or they lauded MJ in some way - but show me quotes where fellow matchups fear Pippen or laud him?... Show me where X-Man, Hill, Dominique, Schrempf, Rice, Mashburn, or other SF's laud Pippen?.
The reality is that they all ragdolled Pippen and did whatever they wanted against Pippen's defense, and of course Pippen's offense was never feared.
Again, you only cite media quotes about pippen, WHICH EVERY PLAYER HAS, so they do nothing to paint an accurate picture of how he was actually perceived at the time... He was considered mostly a transition player and defender that wasn't really available offensively in the 4th - he was considered lucky to have MJ and the triangle.. A Klay-type sidekick and secondary producer... The term "he's a Pippen" is the universal term for a sidekick, lackey, underling and carried player
You literally don't read. In the last page someone posted a Hubie Brown glazing and repeatedly pointed it out to you.
You literally don't read. In the last page someone posted a Hubie Brown glazing and repeatedly pointed it out to you.
Hubie was a member of the media and probably had a vote for MVP and All-NBA.
Again, media opinion means zero.
No active coach or player was saying Pippen was a top 5 player, or even as good as Ewing, Drexler, or Stockton...
You don't understand how absurd the thought of Pippen being on the level of Hakeem, Shaq, MJ, Robinson, Barkley, etc... It's like saying Klay is on Jokic's level... But announcers say all kinds of dumb sh*t... Every notable player has some dumb sh*t said about them at one point or another in their career.
So again, you only cite media quotes about pippen, WHICH EVERY PLAYER HAS, so they do nothing to paint an accurate picture of how he was actually perceived at the time... Pippen was considered mostly a transition player and defender that wasn't really available offensively in the 4th - he was considered lucky to have MJ and the triangle.. A Klay-type sidekick and secondary producer... The term "he's a Pippen" is the universal term for a sidekick, lackey, underling and carried player
Just to be clear, PNR sucks unless it's above the break. BUT ALSO, the high PNR would get destroyed by the more diverse skillsets, ball movement, and chemistry of previous eras. Now those previous eras weren't able to overly defend the inferiorly run PNR but that's only bc Karl Malone and John Stockton were the singular individuals on the planet with the skills necessary. (E
I think we've shown that the PNR sucks no matter where it is because today's high-screen PNR offenses don't win or have poor records, i.e. Nash, CP3, Wall, Lillard, Trae, Luka, Westbrook, and Harden are perennial losers, while Lebron was as well until he teamed up with opposing franchise players.. Yet he STILL mostly lost and has lottery records in the playoffs against ball movement teams like the Warriors (7-15), Spurs (4-11), and Nuggets (1-8)..
Lebron also has a lottery record against Finals teams over massive sample - he produces the worst teams to ever make the Finals, and he does this with super-teams and preseason favorites.
So again, the whole point is that PNR (ball-dominance) sucks, regardless of whether it's regular screen roll or high screen roll... High screen rolls are a little better than regular ones due to better spacing, but both are ball-dominant losers.. Today's era uses it exclusively, so they underperform internationally, while previous eras didn't use it as an offense and moved the ball instead, thereby learning a superior way of playing (better basketball players).
Hope that helps
